Is the English Level Standard of English Teachers any Indication of Standards in Other Disciplines?

[Yadang]

As any English speaker who's been to Taiwan (and I'm going to assume China as well) knows, the English level of many English teachers is quite poor. I've met a few English teachers, and all of them speak English with strong (often hard to comprehend) accents, and their English is fraught with grammatical errors, among other problems. And yet, teachers in general (and perhaps English teachers especially?) are regarded with praise and respect.

 

Now, I'm not trying to hand out blame or condescension or anything - that is not the objective of this post. Indeed, there are some things I admire about their English education system - for example, the amount of importance they put on second language acquisition compared with the U.S. - I think is great. But, as a native speaker of English, this was one of the few areas (if the only area) that I felt I had enough knowledge to judge (I'm still in college, so I don't have any other occupation or other things that I know a lot about). Many of the English teachers I met, if they had been teachers of foreign languages in the U.S., would have been fired in a second.

 

And so my question is this:

 

If the Taiwanese/Chinese society holds English teachers to such a low standard, does this acceptance of sub-standardness exist in other disciplines in Chinese/Taiwanese society? How much importance is placed on how well someone does his/her job, and knows his/her discipline? Or is it the position one holds that is the more important thing?

 

 

Again, this is not meant to be an attack on English teachers or Taiwanese/Chinese in general. We all know how hard learning a completely different language is (especially to an advanced level). I just want to know if this acceptance of sub-standardness exists in other areas as well that I'm not able to judge for myself.

[stapler]

Are you sure they hold English teachers to such a low standard? Imagine if Mandarin was compulsory in the West. Then Imagine that 99% of the teachers of Mandarin in the West were native English speakers who learnt Mandarin at school. I think the situation here would be the same as in Taiwan (or China), perhaps even worse. And this would say nothing about how good the teaching of maths and science are in the West. And if in this situation it says nothing about science and maths teaching in the West, it would say nothing about the state of science and maths teaching in the East. Thus, if there are problems with teaching in the East, I don't think it has anything to do with how good their English teachers are.

[Shelley]

Perhaps they are just unaware how low the standard is. 

 

Perhaps they are the best they have. Perhaps people with excellent English are doing other jobs that pay better and do not involve teaching.

 

Remember what they say Those that can, do; those that can't, teach.

 

Now I don't necessarily believe this as I have had some excellent teachers, but they have usually had a passion for the subject and an enormous desire to share their skills and knowledge, but I have also had some terrible teachers so maybe there is a grain of truth in the saying.

 

stapler makes a good point about how it might be if things were reversed.

[Tianjin42]

It's an interesting question. I worked in a decent middle school in Tianjin for a while. There were some good English teachers but also a few who were fairly senior but they would hide when I was around because beyond teaching from the book, they simply couldn't communicate in real life.

Some of these teachers who hid were more senior but it was the younger English teachers who had recently spent time abroad who were more talented.

My own feeling was that the technical subjects were generally better taught (in my limited experience, anyway).

Perhaps this is indicative of a different problem. When my friend was receiving treatment in the hospital the doctors automatically deferred to the most senior (oldest) doctor but we genuinely didn't think he knew what he was doing. When my friend returned to Germany, the doctors there quickly discovered and remedied the problem, noting that previous treatment had hampered recovery.

I'm with you on the importance of second language in China. The U.K. Would benefit a good deal from this sort of thinking.

[roddy]

I can't speak to Taiwan, but if it's anything like China - don't assume being able to SPEAK English is all that valuable for an English teacher. As far as anyone's concerned your job is to get students through written exams. You can be pretty good at that, and have a level of grammatical knowledge that surpasses most native speakers, without being able to string a spoken sentence together on the fly.

[Demonic_Duck]

I'm assuming that you're referring to Taiwanese English teachers, rather than foreign nationals who come to Taiwan to teach English? Because those are two vastly different groups of people.

 

I can't speak to standards in Taiwan, but in mainland China, you'll find that many English teachers do genuinely have a very high level of spoken English, but there are a good number who really don't. But I agree with what @stapler said.

[歐博思]

Teaching is relatively low pay in China and Taiwan. Considering my next point below, if your English is flawless it may be boring to teach students to take a test when some of the testing material, which I've seen via some of my students, is often total rubbish.

 

China teaches to the test. I wonder if Taiwan is similar in this respect?

 

Hiring for guanxi > hiring for talent (at least much more common in China than the West), further alienating the pool of English speaking talent.

[Yadang]

Thanks, everyone, for your insights.

 

@Stapler

 

Imagine if Mandarin was compulsory in the West. Then Imagine that 99% of the teachers of Mandarin in the West were native English speakers who learnt Mandarin at school. I think the situation here would be the same as in Taiwan (or China), perhaps even worse. And this would say nothing about how good the teaching of maths and science are in the West. And if in this situation it says nothing about science and maths teaching in the West, it would say nothing about the state of science and maths teaching in the East. Thus, if there are problems with teaching in the East, I don't think it has anything to do with how good their English teachers are.

 

That's a really interesting point. I guess something else that I forgot to mention that has made me wonder about weather this standard is held across disciplines, is that the English teachers I met not only weren't that great at English, but also didn't seem very interested in getting better (I can't believe I forgot this, because this is another major reason for my question). Among teachers and students of foreign languages that I've seen in the U.S., the teachers who aren't native speakers who teach it, genuinely have an interest in the language and the culture, and they want to be as good as they can at the language, not just 剛剛好啦。The teachers will speak the language among themselves in the department, will speak it with their more advanced students, and students are also expected to communicate with the each other and the teachers, in that language (if their level is advanced enough). During office hours or in the halls, when students see their teachers, they will usually be expected to communicate in the target language as well.

 

But from what I've experienced, this is in complete contrast to English teachers in Taiwan whom I've met. Inside the class they teach in Chinese, all of the students talk to each other and their teachers in Chinese, even in class. Everything is taught using Chinese. English teachers communicate with other English teachers in Chinese. They read the news in Chinese. Both teachers and students alike seem to get very little input of English in any form other than class materials - and even seem uninterested in doing so (unless there happens to be a foreigner nearby). Of course, I don't follow these teachers around everywhere they go, so I could be wrong - but this is the impression I get. And this is another reason I asked the origional question - is this disinterest and 剛剛好啦 attitude (if they really do have that attitude) present in other disciplines?

 

 

＠Shelly

 

Perhaps they are just unaware how low the standard is

I do sometimes wonder this...

 

 

 

Perhaps this is indicative of a different problem. When my friend was receiving treatment in the hospital the doctors automatically deferred to the most senior (oldest) doctor but we genuinely didn't think he knew what he was doing. When my friend returned to Germany, the doctors there quickly discovered and remedied the problem, noting that previous treatment had hampered recovery.

This is interesting. I've also wondered about the medical treatment in Taiwan. I'm not sure about China, but when I was sick, and when my Taiwanese classmates got sick, we would be supplied with - what seemed to me - an exorbitant amount of pills. I mean, they'd come packaged like this:

 

 

 

 

Each of those packs is to be taken in one sitting. When I got an earache (which I had gotten before and had just gone away - swimmers ear I think), I was prescribed three days of pills, and each day I had to take pills four times. Each time I take four pills. That's 48 pills for an earache. That's more pills then I take in the U.S. over a couple of years. I decided I'd rather risk it, and decided to wait it out for 3 days before taking the pills (the doc had cleaned everything out, which I felt was one of the main hindrances to healing on its own). 3 days later, enough improvement had occurred that I decided I could just wait it out. It was healed soon after, no pills necessary. When I had a fever, I had one doctor prescribe me to take pills three times daily, eight pills each time (forget how many days). When I went to a different doctor for the same fever, he prescribed six pills, three times a day. When I've asked (which, admittedly isn't often) my friends about what they think about the amount of pills they take, compared with how much I take back home, I remember responses:

 

1) Actually, the pills we give are less strong than the pills in the U.S., so we give more of them

 

 

or, 2) yeah, doctors give too many pills out because (a), our healthcare system makes so that patients don't have to pay out of pocket for these pills, so doctors are liberal in their prescriptions, and (b) doctors actually have some kind of vested interest in giving out a lot of pills (to fill quotas, or something - not sure).

 

I have no idea if either of those are remotely true (again, that was only two different responses from two friends). Of course, this is also all in comparison with the U.S. healthcare system as a standard, which has its own problems. And, as I said, I can't actually judge from a very educated point of view on this matter, because I know very little about this kind of stuff. It would be cool if someone who knows what they are talking about with regard to this stuff could come by and comment. Isn't abcdefg a doctor? I wonder if he'll come by and comment.

 

Anyways, this is a third reason that makes me wonder...

 

@roddy, @歐博思

 

I can't speak to Taiwan, but if it's anything like China - don't assume being able to SPEAK English is all that valuable for an English teacher. As far as anyone's concerned your job is to get students through written exams.

 

China teaches to the test. I wonder if Taiwan is similar in this respect?

 

Absolutely. In every way that it's possible to teach to the test. This is a good point. Although it still makes me wonder then, about what I brought up in response to Stapler about the difference in passion/interest that seems to exist between foreign language teachers I've met here in the U.S. and in Taiwan (very limited sample size of course).

[heavenorlasvegas]

Let me turn it around and give you my impression of Spanish translations of stuff in the USA. This could be bus signs, health care information, etc.
With very few exceptions, they look like they were written by an average 12 year old: fluentish, but ungrammatical and awkward. I don't think this is a signal for the level of education of the US as a whole, it just signals to me that educated spanish speakers are scarcer than educated English speakers and that the people that hire them can't tell the difference.

I'm guessing that's the case in Taiwan: you just don't have enough native English speakers.

[abcdefg]

I have no idea if either of those are remotely true (again, that was only two different responses from two friends). Of course, this is also all in comparison with the U.S. healthcare system as a standard, which has its own problems. And, as I said, I can't actually judge from a very educated point of view on this matter, because I know very little about this kind of stuff. It would be cool if someone who knows what they are talking about with regard to this stuff could come by and comment. Isn't abcdefg a doctor? I wonder if he'll come by and comment.

 

I've seen both the best and the worst over here (Mainland China) when it comes to standards of medical practice. Cannot speak to the situation in Taiwan.

 

Not sure it is fair to generalize from what sounds like a Student Health Clinic encounter. The prepackaged "handful of pills" for a minor, self-limited ailment often characterize such one-time encounters. Students are generally perceived as unreliable patients, and this leads to "shotgun therapy" instead of precision.

 

Kunming, which is the city I know best, has way too many small hospitals. They are sprinkled around almost like bank branches, with one or two on most downtown city blocks. (Slight exaggeration.) Their standards are not well defined or regulated by any outside governing body. They can pretty well do as they please until patients start dying and their relatives riot in the lobby. Then the matter is picked up on the 6 o'clock news and the authorities get involved.

 

It's also possible for medical doctors to begin practice here on the China Mainland very soon after graduation from an educational system that only requires them to invest 4 or 5 years after finishing high school. Specialty qualification, of course, takes longer. Consequently, there is often a large gap between what a newly-minted general practitioner knows and what a fully qualified specialist knows.

 

Physicians here usually work very hard and earn comparatively less than they would in the U.S. They are not held in terribly high regard across the board. They often are chronically rushed and must see more patients per hour than they would in the West. Please bear in mind that I have not practiced medicine here in China, so what I know about the subject has been learned "from the outside." I do not claim to be an expert.

 

I could relate a few "medical horror stories" that I've seen here first hand; but I could easily do the same for the U.S. Not sure that would be productive or shed any light on the subject. Medicine in China today is strongly profit driven, and that sometimes leads to bad decisions. Same is true in the U.S., although it is partly held in check by the influence of governing bodies and fear of litigation.

 

Anecdotally, I have a friend here who is a chest surgeon at one of the best local hospitals. I've helped him publish some cases in which he does very advanced laparascopic lung cancer surgery of which any distinguished professor at a prestigious U.S. teaching hospital would be proud. It has been amazing to see him work and review his clinical materials, which include intra-operative video.

[Flickserve]

Here in Hong Kong, despite having a British style curriculum for medicine, the GPs who are medically trained in Hong Kong give out medicines like peanuts.

It's a local culture thing - one has to pay the GP for the consultation and there is an expectation that medicines will be given. The patient expects medicines will cure everything so expects to get some tablets. The doctor feels that if they don't give medicines, the patient won't come back. Such is private care under the GP.

However, does that practice originate from Chinese medicine attitudes? You go and see a Chinese medicine doctor and you get a concoction to brew and drink even though you are basically healthy. Go to an acupuncturist and you definitely get some jabs. There probably is a few thousand years of expectation that a doctor will give something rather than just reassurance...

There is a culture clash. I know of one girl who needed a dental procedure and requested sedation. However, she was worried the medicine would affect the chances of a future pregnancy. Fair enough...nobody can say definitely but it's pretty improbable though she agonised over it. Then it transpired she was taking Chinese medicine everyday. When informed that could also affect a potential baby, she was a bit gobsmacked.

[Flickserve]

abcdefg,

whilst in China, an American family's boy broke his hand. He had a splint put on his forearm....

Mind you, I heard physicians in hospital only have 3 minutes for each consultation. I think that's difficult for anybody. However, a splint in the wrong place with a conscious person is 'interesting'. For comparison, UK GPs are scheduled for about 8 minutes I think.

When in Beijing, I walked past the hospital. Even with my very limited Mandarin, I worked out that these guys were selling the queing numbers for being seen in outpatient. That's pretty sad.

[lips]

To echo #2 and #9, I just came back from a visit to the U.S. I talked to a supposedly bright high school student at a private school (he is going to apply tgo Harvard and some other Ivy League colleges). Anyway he has taken one year of Chinese and will go to China for a month this summer. I suggested to him that we spoke Chinese for five minutes. So he said "ni hao" correctly. Good, I thought. Then he spoke for another minute and I did not understand a single thing he said. Couldn't make out even a single character. Someone at the table asked him to say a survival phrase like "where is the toilet" and I could not make out anything - nothing remotely similar to "weishengjian" or "cesuo" was said. His family, who did not know any Chinese, was all smiles and quite proud of him.

[Flickserve]

It's not an issue. There are many stories of University students of Chinese (not in China) subsequently going to China for the one year and not being understood.

I wonder, did you inform them of his standard of Chinese?

[abcdefg]

Someone at the table asked him to say a survival phrase like "where is the toilet" and I could not make out anything - nothing remotely similar to "weishengjian" or "cesuo" was said. His family, who did not know any Chinese, was all smiles and quite proud of him.

 

And when he arrives on the streets of Beijing in a couple months, he will doubtless be profusely complimented after a single "knee how" and become all puffed up with pride. "Oh, your Chinese is so wonderful." He will make a YouTube video about how fluent Chinese was very easy to acquire.

[Guest realmayo]

An English teacher today who is 45 years old will have been at university in 1990. Would his or her teachers at that time ever have actually spoken to a foreigner? In the mainland, I'm guessing not, so its not surprising that he or she can't speak good English. I don't think that will apply to the majority of teachers in 20 years time though.

 

As for all the pills, the only thing I know about Chinese medicine is that it generally seeks to do more than just treat one particular symptom, so multiple types of medicine are prescribed. And they are individually fairly weak so you usually need to take lots of the same pill.

[lips]

I wonder, did you inform them of his standard of Chinese?

No. With both families there, I was too much of a softie to hurt his self-esteem (probably for the first time in his life). At least I didn't praise him.

[lips]

As for all the pills, the only thing I know about Chinese medicine is that it generally seeks to do more than just treat one particular symptom, so multiple types of medicine are prescribed. And they are individually fairly weak so you usually need to take lots of the same pill.

These are natural products. An ingredient may have multiple effects so different ingredients may be combined to balance them out. BTW the same concept when used in western medicine is considered a breakthrough, like the cocktail treatment for AIDS.

[lips]

It's a local culture thing - one has to pay the GP for the consultation and there is an expectation that medicines will be given. The patient expects medicines will cure everything so expects to get some tablets. The doctor feels that if they don't give medicines, the patient won't come back. Such is private care under the GP.

Agree.

However, does that practice originate from Chinese medicine attitudes? You go and see a Chinese medicine doctor and you get a concoction to brew and drink even though you are basically healthy. Go to an acupuncturist and you definitely get some jabs. There probably is a few thousand years of expectation that a doctor will give something rather than just reassurance...

Not agree.

[Guest realmayo]

you get a concoction to brew and drink even though you are basically healthy.

 

I think some people will often go to a Chinese doctor even when they don't feel too bad, to get some fine-tuning for their body, to help prevent them actually getting sick in the future. Prevention better than cure....