Nox01 Posted June 2, 2016 at 03:04 PM Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 at 03:04 PM Hi all. Could you help me understand the ...倒是...., 可是 grammar structure? In english this structure is translated to "Well, it is.... however....." Below is the explanation from the text book with a few examples and unsolved sentenced which I attempted to solve. --------- 俄倒是不饿，可是可以吃一点东西。 I’m not really hungry, but I could eat a little something. ［倒是］前面是重复对方的问题或说法，［倒是］后面才是真正的回答。说［倒是］的目的是说话者可以利用这个时候考虑如何回答，亦可使语气较婉转。［倒是］后面肯定，否定都可以。［是］可省略，但大部分的人省略［倒］。 Preceding 倒是 is the opening response to the other party’s question or comment, but following 倒是 is the speaker’s real answer. 倒是 allows the speaker some time while deciding upon an answer and also serves to soften the tone of the reply. The words following 倒是 can be either positive or negative. Either 倒 or 是 can be omitted, but usually it is 倒 which is omitted. 请用 ［······ 倒是 ······，可是（不过，就是）······] 回答下面问题： 1. 你为什么不跟他们一起去，你不喜欢游泳吗？ --> 喜欢是不喜欢，可是我今天太累。 (I showed this to a native speaker, but he said it should be 喜欢是喜欢） 2. 你想不想看电影？ --> 想倒是想，不过我不喜欢太常看。(apparently 想倒是想 is correct, or can it also be 想倒是不想？) 3. 你为什么不坐公车去？车票不贵啊！ --> 不贵倒是不贵，可是我不喜欢坐公共交通工具去。 (I think this one is clear enough... "It’s not really expensive, but I don’t like to use public transportation"... Although, could I use ”贵倒是不贵“？) 4. 你会说法文啊？我以为你没学过。（请用否定句回答） --> 没学过倒是没学过，可是我可以跟法文讲的人交流。 (My understanding is what I wrote in the first part means "I haven’t really studied") -------- The explanation doesn’t mention what’s the right way to combine negative and positive phrases before and after 倒是，nor does it explain the difference between x + 倒是 + x x + 倒是 + 不／没 x 没／不x + 倒是 + x 没／不x + 倒是 + 没／不x The native speaker I talked to said it should always be [positive phrase]+ (倒)是 + [positive phrase], but after I showed him "俄倒是不饿，可是可以吃一点东西。", he was a little embarrassed, but said this one is also right. So I’m really confused now. Another native speaker said this is complicated to grasp even for native speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Publius Posted June 2, 2016 at 05:03 PM Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 at 05:03 PM 1. 你为什么不跟他们一起去，你不喜欢游泳吗？ --> 喜欢是不喜欢，可是我今天太累。 (I showed this to a native speaker, but he said it should be 喜欢是喜欢） He's right. It should be 喜欢是喜欢. Because "I don't really like it, but I'm tired" makes little sense. Compare: "I really like it, but I'm tired." "I don't really like it" implies "I don't want to go." The relationship between "I don't want to go" and "I'm tired" is not "but" but "because." Agree? 2. 你想不想看电影？ --> 想倒是想，不过我不喜欢太常看。(apparently 想倒是想 is correct, or can it also be 想倒是不想？) 想倒是不想 is also correct. But then you have to change the "but" part. For example: 想倒是不想，但是如果没别的事可做的话，看看也无妨。 3. 你为什么不坐公车去？车票不贵啊！ --> 不贵倒是不贵，可是我不喜欢坐公共交通工具去。 (I think this one is clear enough... "It’s not really expensive, but I don’t like to use public transportation"... Although, could I use ”贵倒是不贵“？) Yes, 贵倒是不贵 and 不贵倒是不贵 means the same. Yeah, I know, it's complicated. Give me some time see if I can come up with an explanation. 4. 你会说法文啊？我以为你没学过。（请用否定句回答） --> 没学过倒是没学过，可是我可以跟讲法文的人交流。 (My understanding is what I wrote in the first part means "I haven’t really studied") Yes, your understanding is correct. I changed 法文讲->讲法文, a typo I believe. Also, in this specific sentence, omitting 倒 can make it sound slightly more natural. Euphonic or prosodic reasons I guess. The native speaker I talked to said it should always be [positive phrase]+ (倒)是 + [positive phrase], but after I showed him "俄倒是不饿，可是可以吃一点东西。", he was a little embarrassed, but said this one is also right. So I’m really confused now. Another native speaker said this is complicated to grasp even for native speakers. Lol, native speakers often are very bad at explaining their own language. Try look it this way: the 倒是 part is, as your textbook rightly pointed out, a delaying tactic to buy time. It's a typical topic-comment structure: "speaking of X, hmm, let me see, I would say yes X (or no not-X)." But this is not the final answer. From this 倒是 part, following the usual logic, you can draw a mental conclusion to predict what their answer would likely be. It might be yes (Y), it might be no (not-Y), but it's not important. The important thing is, with a 不过, they are going to make your prediction fail. However, since you already know this sequence, this 倒是 followed by 但是 thing (there's always a but), when you hear the WORD (X or not-X) immediately following 倒是, you know the answer would be opposite to one would usually predict based on that WORD, so you mentally flip Y to not-Y and vice versa. That's the key point of this structure, in my opinion. I don't know if this is helpful or creating more confusion. Let me know if you have further questions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Publius Posted June 2, 2016 at 05:30 PM Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 at 05:30 PM Another thought: 喜欢是不喜欢 sounds really, really weird. But 喜欢倒是谈不上 is perfectly correct. And I don't know why lol. 喜欢倒是谈不上 => I don't really like it but... => I still want to go. Now you see, since the question is 你为什么不跟他们一起去(why don't you go with them?), this "I still want to go" is not the right answer. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lips Posted June 3, 2016 at 01:13 AM Report Share Posted June 3, 2016 at 01:13 AM x + 倒 + ... IMHO, used in a response, x repeats the sentiment of what the other party just said. 你为什么不坐公车去，公车不贵啊！ Speaker's meaning is 不贵，so response is 不贵倒是 ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nox01 Posted June 3, 2016 at 01:37 AM Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2016 at 01:37 AM @Publius, your posts above are really insightful. If I get this right, then it doesn’t really matter what is said before 倒是; it can be positive or negative, or one might even skip it altogether, or just repeat what the other person said? (unimportant answer) + 倒是 + real desire/thought ＋ 不过／但是／就是 + excuse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
陳德聰 Posted June 3, 2016 at 08:10 AM Report Share Posted June 3, 2016 at 08:10 AM I just tried coming up with some sentences... I think if I say 倒是, the word before it will usually be in the affirmative, so in lips's example with the bus, I would find it cumbersome to say 不貴倒是不貴 and would simply say 貴倒是不貴, but I can maybe see myself saying 不貴是不貴, but with more emphasis on 是. My understanding is that the first word you said is not necessarily acknowledging or repeating the sentiments of the person who spoke before you, but acknowledging what they were talking about: 貴倒是不貴，可是... as for whether it's expensive, it's not that it's expensive, but ... 想倒是不想，可是... as for whether I want to, it's not that I want to, but ... 餓倒是不餓，可是... as for whether I'm hungry, it's not that I'm hungry, but ... So really it would be: (Parameter in question) + 倒是 + (which setting applies to you: positive or negative), + 不過/但是/可是/就是 + your opinion that is contrary or different from the person who spoke before you. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Publius Posted June 3, 2016 at 10:06 AM Report Share Posted June 3, 2016 at 10:06 AM If I get this right, then it doesn’t really matter what is said before 倒是; it can be positive or negative, or one might even skip it altogether, or just repeat what the other person said?I would say, yes what comes before 倒是 is unimportant; but no you don't want to skip it. Remember, you repeat the topic brought up by your interlocutor to soften the tone (because you're going to contradict at least part of what s/he said) and to buy time (to think up some excuse). I think if I say 倒是, the word before it will usually be in the affirmative, so in lips's example with the bus, I would find it cumbersome to say 不貴倒是不貴 and would simply say 貴倒是不貴, but I can maybe see myself saying 不貴是不貴, but with more emphasis on 是.Exactly. I suspect it has something to do with the number of syllables, but struggle to come up with a set of clear-cut rules. For example, in OP's 4th sentence, 你会说法文啊？我以为你没学过, both 没学过是没学过，但我会说那么一点儿 and 学[倒是/是/倒]没学过，但我会说那么一点儿 sound very natural, but 没学过倒(是)没学过 -- less so. And things become even weirder when the word before 倒是 is disyllabic and indivisible. 喜欢是喜欢 is OK; but if you want a negative, 喜欢(倒)是谈不上 seems to be the only option. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yosondysh Posted June 4, 2016 at 07:16 PM Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 at 07:16 PM 你为什么不坐公车去？车票不贵啊！ --> 不贵倒是不贵，可是我不喜欢坐公共交通工具去。 Take this for example: It should be (說（到））（車票）（貴）不貴倒是不貴，可是 + excuse。 The words in parentheses were omitted. You can freely select the words you like to make sentences, such as 說貴倒是不貴，可是... 說它貴不貴倒是不貴，可是... 貴倒不貴，可是... 不貴是不貴，可是... , without changing the meaning. 喜歡是不喜歡 sounds fine to me (although I would prefer 說喜歡倒不喜歡 or 是不喜歡啦； this phrase sounds a bit arrogant. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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