音乐 Pronunciation: yin yue or ying yue?

[Ethan P]

So my listening skills are decent, and I can easily distinguish between most phonemes in Chinese, but this one has been bothering me for a while. I'll use 音乐 as an example.

 

The pinyin says to pronounce it "yin yue", but every audio sample I've ever heard sounds like the speaker is pronouncing it "ying yue". This is true for a handful of other examples I've come across (in which pinyin says "-in" but audio sounds like "-ing"). As far as I can tell, the main difference between the two is that when vocalizing "-ing", you close your wind pipe and produce a more nasally sound than when vocalizing "-in" (done with an open wind pipe). Both have a long "e" sound, but the quality is noticeably different.

 

Is this a sandhi/pesky rule exception that says "yin" is pronounced "ying" in 音乐? Or is this a matter of some dialects pronouncing it "yin" and some pronouncing it "ying"? If so, which is more standard or popular?

[Michael H]

This bothered me for a long time. I think what's going on is that (at least in some accents) the final "-in" is pronounced neither like the "een" in English "seen", nor like the "ing" in English "sing". Rather, it is a nasalized English "ee", which sounds somewhat like English "ing". If you are familiar with French, it has some other nasal vowels produced the same way. And I think that the Portuguese nasal vowel "-im" is very similar to the Mandarin "-in". The Mandarin "-ing", on the other hand, starts out like Mandarin "-in" and then glides back.

[Wurstmann]

That's interesting. I never heard it as ying yue. Maybe it's because my native language is German and not English?

So you for you it sounds the same as the ying in 樱桃?

[889]

I hear this sometimes, too. But I don't recall hearing 今天 as jingtian, say. Maybe it's related to the way that final n gets linked up to that following y in casual speech, at least of some.

[stapler]

I don't know the linguistic terms to describe this, but the answer is found in the "yue". You're hearing the beginning of this sound (the "i" at the start of "yue") as the end of "yin" as well and translating it into "ying". And this is why you don't have the same problem with "jin tian".

 

A similar thing happens in Russian with words like "orchin". Here's the word:

http://forvo.com/word/%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%8C/

 

Basically this word also ends with "in" but has a small modifier that palatalises the last letter "n". This palatalisation process is often described in textbooks as adding a subtle "i" sound to the consonant. This makes some English speakers confuse this sound for an "ing".

 

What's this got to do with "yin yue"? While there is no palatisation going on here, there is an "i" sound right after the "n" consonant here like in the Russian word.

[vellocet]

Try it with your mouth.  The "nya" from between yin and yue is awfully close to g.  Notice how little tongue movement is needed to get from yin yue to ying yue.  You're trying to be meticulous because you're an adult learner, but native speakers never think about it and just say whatever comes out of their mouth.  

[Ethan P]

Thanks for the responses!

 

After enunciating to the room for a while, I can totally understand how "-in" immediately followed by "yu-" can sound very, very close to "-ing". But I went back to my audio sample for 音乐 and they are clearly vocalizing the more nasal "-ing" throughout the entire character. I suspect the audio sample is "incorrect" according linguist or newscaster standards, but listen for yourself.

 

Here is the audio that started the whole thing.

Exhibit 1 yinyue.mp3

 

I looked up another instance of 音 to compare: 声音. The "yin" here isn't followed by a "yu-" sound, yet the person still pronounces it "ying"!

Exhibit 2 shengyin.mp3

 

In the same folder, however, was another sample of 声音. This guy clearly pronounces it "yin".

Exhibit 3 shengyin v2.mp3

 

So I think what's happening is a combination of things people brought up:

1. "-in", immediately followed by "yu-", sounds a lot like "-ing" to the linguistically untrained ear.
2. Most native speakers have a linguistically untrained ear. I think vellocet is right in that "native speakers never think about it and just say whatever comes out of their mouth". So a subset of native speakers, as children, heard "-ing" and learned to say "ying yue" instead of "yin yue". A subset of this subset then went on to record audio samples.
3. I downloaded one such sample. The pronunciation may not be correct from a prescriptivist perspective, but no native speaker would raise an eyebrow at it because it's correct from a descriptivist perspective (as in, so many people say "ying yue" that it's become normal).

This theory is compelling to me when I think about how many little variations in pronunciations exist between dialects and even within dialects, that this might well be one such variation. To summarize, "yin yue" is the correct pronunciation, but purposefully saying "ying yue" is ok as well.

[Wurstmann]

I can't hear ying in your examples. She is clearly saying 'in'. That's really strange. 

[Shelley]

I can't hear the  "ing" either in those examples, although I can see why you might. it sounds like she swallows the final "n" in yin almost sounding like "g" If you have thought it  was a "ing" then whenever you hear it you are going to hear "ing"

 

Can you slow it down? Listen to it slowly a couple of times, see what you think then. Or put on headphones, get the best quality audio you can and really concentrate on listening a few times. Once you hear it is not "ing" it will be easier next time and so on.

 

.

[刘慧婷]

I hear a slight 'ying' in the first recording but the more I listen to it, the less obvious it seems.

 

Like several other people have already mentioned, there are a variety of socially acceptable pronunciations that don't change the meaning of the word e.g. in English 'later' can be pronounced with a 't' or a 'd' and people will still get what you mean.

 

Fluency in a language also includes the speaking speed of the speaker so we might change the pronunciation based on time constraints/become lazy. In the case of 'yinyue', it's much easier for your tongue to transition from 'ying' to 'yue' than 'yin' to 'yue'. In the first form, your tongue remains in the same position but in the second you put more effort in by having your tongue touch the roof of your mouth and opening up the airflow again.

 

This is just my own speculation though.

[陳德聰]

Another thing to keep in mind is that different people perceive the same sounds differently, influenced by loads of things. I am on my phone so I don't have praat handy, but it would be worthwhile to check out what the actual objective phonetic properties of those recordings are. In general the n vs ng distinction is not that strong among many native speakers anyway, so from a practical standpoint you don't need to worry, but if it's a purely academic pursuit then I'm sure there are studies with keywords like alveopalatal nasal or something like that.

Edit: just listened to your recordings and #1 is over enunciating to the max, and I can hear what you mean by having an ying, #2 is yin, probably further back than "standard", and #3 doesn't even sound like a native speaker.

[Guest realmayo]

#1 is over enunciating to the max

 

I think that's the problem

 

#3 doesn't even sound like a native speaker.

 

definitely! therefore also problematic.

[Demonic_Duck]

The first two samples sound very standard to me. Some speakers will mix up -n and -ng finals due to regional influences, but that's not the case here.

The last sample is nonstandard only in that the 音 in 声音 is normally first tone rather than neutral.

When I started learning Chinese I had problems differentiating, but I'm now more sensitive to the sound difference than most native speakers. For example, native Beijingers (who do make the distinction in their own speech) have asked my girlfriend whether she's also from Beijing, but I can tell from her accent that she isn't, due to mixing up -n and -ng finals.

[eddyf]

Whatever is happening in these examples, there are definitely some regional dialects where -in and -ing sound very similar if not the same. Just a few days back I was listening to a ChinesePod podcast where they were joking at some point about mixing up 基金 with 鸡精. I'm not sure what the regional distribution is exactly but I've noticed that with a Beijing accent the -ing seems to end a lot further back almost like you're saying the English word "young" (though not as exaggerated as that). That makes it easier to distinguish. Similarly some accents mix up -en and -eng. I haven't heard -an and -ang getting mixed up though.

[陳德聰]

#1 is over enunciating to the max

 

I think that's the problem

Absolutely. We often say things in confusing and unnatural ways when explaining (citational speech) and the awkwardness can bring unintended pronunciations out. I think also the addition of the glide initially in "yin" suggests influence from Cantonese or other Chinese language. I think OP already reached the whole "yin" is standard but people say "ying" sometimes conclusion though in #7.

[Wurstmann]

 

 

Whatever is happening in these examples, there are definitely some regional dialects where -in and -ing sound very similar if not the same.

 

Yeah, but isn't it the other way around? ing sounds like in, not in like ing?

[eddyf]

Yeah, but isn't it the other way around? ing sounds like in, not in like ing?

 

Yeah I guess. But for someone who is used to hearing a -ing pronunciation that is very similar to -in, they could hear these recordings with -in and think it's actually -ing. The point being, the two of them do sound really similar in some speakers. In some cases even native speakers will mishear it. Of course, in these examples there can be no actual ambiguity because there's no word yīngyuè or shēngyīng.

[vellocet]

Yeah, I think that's it.  If there's no word "yingyue" then there's no chance of being misheard by pronouncing it that way.  Especially if people are expecting to hear the word, native speakers can be as lazy as they want.  Context is king!

[Guest realmayo]

I think also the addition of the glide initially in "yin" suggests influence from Cantonese or other Chinese language.

 

I'm probably misunderstanding you but this reminds me of working on pronunciation with a northern speaker who was taking care to point out north/south differences. It was emphasised that the difference between yin and ying isn't just the 'n' versus 'ng', it's also the effect the 'ng' has on the 'i', so basically, if you were listening to the two words pronounced very slowly, you would be able to hear from the start if the final was going to be 'n' or 'ng'.

 

And in fact, the more nasally glide-effect is I think standard northern Chinese for 'ying' (and other -ings), in contrast to the cleaner 'yin'. I think what is happening is that: the 'ng' is produced by raising the back of the tongue. But this raising doesn't happen at the last minute, simply to produce the final; instead it happens while the initial is being produced.

 

But in areas where all 'yings' are traditionally 'yins', then even diligent putonghua speakers from those regions will pronounce the initials the same, even though they are conscientiously pronouncing the finals correctly.

[陳德聰]

I think so. It sounds like you're talking about the sound that shows up between the and the [ng], which is very Northern, sometimes sounding like i-eng when exaggerated. What I meant was the y at the beginning of yin is generally not pronounced and is just there in the pinyin because "rules", and not because there is actually a y sound at the beginning of the word. In my understanding, 'yin' should be pronounced simply as [in], but the first recording has an exaggerated yyyyyyyyyyyin going on.