Non-teaching jobs, STEM.

[NotChinese]

Hi all.

 

Quick search on the forum brings up a lot of threads like this but I noticed one interesting thing - all the threads were started by people with liberal arts or social science degrees, or no degree at all, and a few of the replies made loose comments along the lines of, "Well you're not doing STEM so..."

 

So now I'm making a 'what are my options?' thread as a STEM student.

 

I have experience of living in China (studied for a year - CSC), can speak Chinese to a conversant level (not fluent, but I passed HSK4 and gave my speaking/listening a surprisingly satisfying boost after 3 months solo travel in China this summer), and am soon to graduate with a degree in theoretical physics, which gives quite a broad set of options I can consider leaning towards (programming, engineering, energy, geophysics, even finance). 

 

Also, with my degree (which I'll have finished in about 8 months, most likely with a 2:1 classification, or maybe a First if I really go for it), I have the option of rolling it onto a masters afterwards. I'm a mature student (late 20s) so am kind of itching to get back into the adult world again, and am therefore a bit iffy about the masters degree. Would it be better for me to stay on and get the masters as another qualification to bulk my CV out (even though it's mostly to do with research in theoretical physics, so very specific and pointless in the working world even if it sounds fancy to the average punter), or might it just be a waste of a year in which I could be getting work experience?

 

A friend of mine who runs a recruitment company in China tells me I should be fine, primarily thanks to my language, living and travel experience in the country, which he said is more than most of his applicants can say for themselves as they often have none of that (not even a “你好” !). I told him I'd happily go for an internship just to get myself in the country but his advice was, "Just wait for a full time job, man!" He seemed confident I'd be ok, but this seems to go against the info I've seen here which says I'd most likely need a few years experience in a specific line of work beforehand.

 

I heard there's been a change in visa rulings lately too.

 

Anybody have any thoughts, experience or info?

 

Cheers 

[LinZhenPu]

I know you said non-teaching jobs, but I think it would be a good idea to get into the country with a teaching job so that you can canvass companies and to make it easier for a company in China to interview you and give you an internship since you'd be already in country, which will boost your chances. You'll need to do as much as possible to put the odds in your favor, because the vast majority of STEM jobs especially what you described are going to go to local Chinese people including those looking for people with a few years of experience as China has A LOT of STEM graduates .

 

I'd be looking at getting a teaching qualification ie PGCE. English-medium STEM teachers in international schools are paid very well and get to work in the nice cities. I think with your bachelor's degree and a PGCE you should be able to find a good job teaching high school physics. You'll definitely boost your chances if you can also qualify to teach one or more of chemistry, maths, biology and AP (anatomy and physiology) but since you did a more focused degree this could take a while.

 

In the STEM field there are often job openings looking for people who have teaching experience. I think getting a teaching job, having worked in China and being proficient in Chinese are all things that are going to play in your favor in your future job prospects because you are going to stand out from the crowd.

[thechamp]

Try to work a couple of years in the UK if you can....it will help your visa application hugely. You could probably get a software engineering role in China but you'd get one in the UK too. We had a paid intern in the office in Summer who was doing his degree in Physics at Imperial, and his computing knowledge was already pretty good. The computational physics modules seem really good.

 

I know a fair few people who've worked none teaching jobs in China but most are transferred from the UK or elsewhere. There aren't too many who find roles locally, unless their Chinese is awesome (basically native). 

[eion_padraig]

I don't know that a STEM background does much without having advanced degrees and a fair bit of experience in a particular field. I've know experienced engineers who have been hired by foreign companies, but they usually get relocated here on a package after working at their company for a while. Having language skills in Chinese could facilitate that, but that's not why they get brought over.

 

I know foreigners who run their own tech companies in China and hire lots of Chinese software programers. They're able to run these companies here because they don't have to pay those folks much. I doubt you'd have much luck with entry level jobs. 

 

It's probably easier to find the opportunities here if you're already living here and you can network as LinZhenPu stated. He's right about the international schools being well paid (at least compared to the ESL jobs), but even the good schools want you to have two years of teaching experience in addition to your PGCE.

 

When I was here 15 years ago things were much easier and the language skills you mentioned would have differentiated you a great deal. But now there are a lot more returnees with foreign schooling and there are a lot more foreigners with strong Chinese language skills. Things can still happen, but it's a lot harder than it used to be.

[NotChinese]

Thanks for the responses

 

Problem for me regarding teaching is that I have quite a blunt aversion to it. Nothing against it specifically but it just isn't me. I basically have this weird phobia of having to present in front of a group. It's irrational, I know, because I don't suffer from social anxiety or whatever else in daily life and people are surprised when I tell them about it. I guess I had a mentally scarring experience of it at a young age or something, heh. So teaching, or anything like it, isn't really my game. Unless it's some kind of 1-on-1 thing where I can basically be friends with the person I'm teaching.

 

It's an option but not one I'm hugely keen on.

 

This is interesting:

 

 

 

We had a paid intern in the office in Summer who was doing his degree in Physics at Imperial, and his computing knowledge was already pretty good. The computational physics modules seem really good

 

I've done computing modules too (C++, Python) - in fact my best grades by far were in these subjects - but I figured the programming I was doing was too physics-specific. However I've never really known what 'non-physics' programming even consists of, so it's interesting to learn that the stuff I've done may actually be quite fine for making that line of work a consideration.

 

Anyway, thanks for the replies . I guess my best option is to get experience in the UK while keeping my ear to the ground and firing out applications whenever I see good opportunities come up for China work.

 

I'm very likely going to look for an internship in China somewhere this summer too.

[Angelina]

Have you considered a master's degree in China? I just met someone working at LAMOST this weekend, also met people doing plasma physics, there are opportunities.

There is campus recruitment in China, so it will be easier to get a job after you graduate (if that's what you are looking for). The catch being: you have to be genuinely interested in your studies. 

[NotChinese]

I've definitely considered this, even considered the CSC route as did pretty good on my original scholarship （第一名    ） so could use old teachers as references. Unless there's some rule saying a person can't go for another scholarship...

 

If I can't take the scholarship route then I'm kind of screwed because even though China's cheap, I'd still need to cover the fees out of my own pocket. So basically I probably couldn't afford it, specially since masters in China are 3 years    (or so I heard?).

 

You mention the campus recruitment stuff - now that's interesting. And three years of studying in China would give huge amounts of time to put feelers out, and yeah I do enjoy physics so if there was a healthy enough reason to keep up the studying I'd consider it. So yeah, I'll keep this in mind as an option. Only problem would be funding, so scholarship would have to be the path I go for. Plus I genuinely feel for the first time that age is playing against me. I'd have breached 30 by the point of graduation if I took the masters route in China. I suppose internships etc could help top up the "experience" department.

 

Thanks

[Angelina]

Scholarships don't offer much in terms of money. If you can find a job in the UK where you can afford a better lifestyle (more freedom), you can try that for now.

 

If you are thinking about China long-term, maybe a master's in China would be better because of things like campus recruitment, networking, and so on. Not sure about quality of education, you should look at what research faculty is/are working on before applying.

[MarsBlackman]

What do you want to do? Do you just want to be in China doing anything that pays the bills, or use your physics degree?

 

Thinking about what you have to offer that isn't readily available in the Chinese job market is a good place to start. Leverage that.

[imron]

Plenty of game companies in china. Plenty of games use physics. Many of these companies are also willing to employ foreigners.

Might be worth looking in to.

[NotChinese]

 

 

Plenty of game companies in china. Plenty of games use physics. Many of these companies are also willing to employ foreigners. 

 

Definitely interesting, cheers.

 

 

What do you want to do? Do you just want to be in China doing anything that pays the bills, or use your physics degree?

 

Thinking about what you have to offer that isn't readily available in the Chinese job market is a good place to start. Leverage that

 

Within reason, I'd consider a lot of things if it were to result in my being in China. Salary isn't even top of the list for me, I just like the way of life over there.

 

The ideal would be something physics related but that's an incredibly broad base, which sort of explains why nobody talks of doing a "physics job". There are tons of things I could look into doing, mostly relating to tech/engineering and, like I said, finance people seem to like physics grads too, presumably for the amount of maths we do.

 

As far as what exclusive skill I can bring to China..? Not much    I suppose being a native English speaker is a bonus from a business/communication perspective, while the conversational Chinese and overall knowledge of the country and its culture is always going to be a winner over someone who hasn't got that.

 

 

Scholarships don't offer much in terms of money. If you can find a job in the UK where you can afford a better lifestyle (more freedom), you can try that for now.

 

If you are thinking about China long-term, maybe a master's in China would be better because of things like campus recruitment, networking, and so on. Not sure about quality of education, you should look at what research faculty is/are working on before applying.

 

Yeah, that's pretty much the bottom line with my thoughts on doing the masters, whether in China or the UK or what. It's another year plodding along as a student without much earning/saving/"growing" going on.

 

I think if I do a masters I'll probably do it in the UK actually. I'm already accepted onto the course, and it's 1 year long so less time wasted.

 

Also, yeah I'll hunt around for UK companies that have China links, or at least are interested in breaking into the China market (an increasingly common thing, I believe). 

[Angelina]

Tesla does campus recruitment in China. I think it is fairly easy to get an excellent job at an excellent company in China if you go to school in China. Of course, I can't force my worldview on other people. 

 

http://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz=MzA3NDY5ODkwMw==&mid=2826499617&idx=2&sn=d738252f5ba06c1602123029730ae473&chksm=b2f78fd9858006cfbf841b618c1ca3311e8341486c75049c13e65a43f30220aaf50c7a049a1b&mpshare=1&scene=1&srcid=1019pVS7WJuhqcHpGEYtCwiZ#rd

[thechamp]

Your biggest problem with this is going to be just the logistics. How are you going to get to interviews? Are you going to go out there with nothing then interview and change your visa (really sketchy). 

 

I moved from an English teaching job to a weird job at a dodgy financial firm. Even that required two interviews and a translation exercise. I also had two interviews in HK at the time for different roles (selling software for legal professionals). 

 

If you go the software route I'd spend a month or two beforehand to make a little portfolio of even some basic stuff and stick it on github (even a game like space invaders would probably be enough to show an interest). You'll make less than you would in the UK though (the reason e.g. Ubisoft outsource to Chengdu is cos it's cheaper).

 

You could probably also walk into a databasing or web development job with a little portfolio of toy projects. The thing is you'll be paid less (although living costs are less so maybe it's worth it?). You're unlikely to have a perm role though with a pension and a training budget etc.

With regards finance and other professional jobs - if you are a PRC citizen you'll have a much better choice....I'm guessing though that you aren't? If you aren't, there are a lot of jobs (most of the jobs you'd associate with 'finance' in the UK) that you are not legally allowed to do, so bear that in mind.

 

If you go into something sort of engineering related bear in mind that a lot of engineering is done at consultancies in offices out of country and hundreds of miles from the actual projects (my dad works in offshore wind) but saying that the Chinese are now spending more than any other country on renewables.....lots of engineering to be done there!

 

I think the comment about Tesla is misguided....Tesla are not going to start doing any engineering in China for obvious IP reasons.

 

Ultimately I would say that most people who want to be in China end up making some kind of professional sacrifice, or there are those who are there making what for them is a lifestyle sacrifice (because they don't like China) but being very well rewarded financially because they have some kind of in-demand skill. These people are usually mechanical, geotechnical or electrical engineers in my experience. 

[NotChinese]

A very informative response, thanks.

 

For me I think the main sacrifice would be financial. Given the choice of £X earnings in the UK, or £x less in China, I'd go with China just because I like the life. The whole world seems to be going the way of short term contracts and whatnot these days anyway so regarding pensions etc I'll just have to save up myself. Or live fast and die young... 

 

Regarding portfolios etc - this is interesting because I thought something similar this morning. For example, if I were to think more seriously about the option of going for a masters in China... As far as I'm aware the 2 or 3 year time-span somewhat spreads out the intensity compared to the UK, which is bunged into one year. So perhaps having this time doing a masters in China would also give me the time to teach myself all the most important coding languages and do several little projects along the way. Just a thought. Plus there'd be the "in China" bonus - language, experience, contacts, recruitment opportunities etc.

 

Just had myself a wee look at scholarships too and there seems to be quagmire of info to wage through: CSC, Hanban, local government, foreign government, university specific... 

 

If I were to not do that, and instead go straight to looking for work while still in the UK, I guess I'd just look for a company that has an international scope, including offices in China. It's an expanding market and a phenomenally large country so I can see hope in that direction too. Alternatively I'd go berserk on all the specific China job websites and see if luck is on my side.

 

So much to think about.

 

Cheers  

[NotChinese]

 

 

Tesla does campus recruitment in China. I think it is fairly easy to get an excellent job at an excellent company in China if you go to school in China. Of course, I can't force my worldview on other people.

 

Force away 

 

In fact this masters idea is beginning to become slightly more realistic the more I think about it...

 

The only thing truly holding me back is the funding, and the fact that it would mean even longer in education.

[thechamp]

Just realized you're in your late 20s....You may also want to think about how your CV is already 'unconventional' from an HR/recruitment perspective (because you're doing your undergrad quite late) so you might want to think a bit about how if you spend a long time in China it's going to start to look really quite unusual for when you want to come back. There's nothing wrong with that but you will be questioned about it in interviews. Also, if you're really thinking about going into something like finance....have you met the kind of people who work in HR in banking/consulting?! They're pretty straight-laced!

 

For the masters check to see if there are any in computer science for non computer science grads. UCL and Imperial both do MScs in this (I did one). Oxford and Cambridge also both do them, but you need a quantitative first degree.

[NotChinese]

Oh yeah the finance thing was a generic 'option' that a lot of physics grads float towards in the UK, I just put it out there as part of the list of things I could consider if so desired. Personally, it's not really a thing I'm hugely keen on overall, and if it's harder to do in China then consider me doubly "not keen".

 

I think programming will be what I go for, in an ideal scenario.

 

Agreed, my CV is already very unconventional (aka relevant professional work experience is still non-existent). My mindset at the moment is essentially that what I'm doing right now is always going to be better than not doing it. Four years ago I just had a handful of A-levels and was recently laid off. Now I know tons and was fluky enough to gain a scholarship and learn Chinese along the way. Even with the huge gap in work experience, I can almost "feel" the doors of opportunity opening day by day simply by virtue of the stuff I'm learning. Such is the ever-increasing qualifications/knowledge/skills dependent world we live in.

 

But still, I agree generally, and this is why there's a very serious weigh-up to consider between a 1-year masters in the UK, a 2-3 year masters in China, or no masters at all.

[Angelina]

Things to consider:

 

-Gap years are not common in China. You might find some students who retook the gaokao (so one year older than usual), but they don't want to talk about that. You will probably be older than most students. I do have one Chinese friend who had taken a big break between her master's and her doctoral studies, she was seen as more mature and reliable, it can be an advantage, she made it an advantage. She took some really big responsibilities (conferences, visiting scholars,  这类的 ), though. 

-The last year of school is the job hunting year. This is really big in China, students spend a lot of time considering their options. Unless they stay in academia. Also, they can have one year of their master's then link it with a PhD, so when they start their second year, they are considered doctoral students. International students can't do this because of scholarship restrictions.

-The scholarship info from that link has not been updated. See photo below. 

-You should think about this. If you are making long term plans, school is a good way to start, but it is not the only way, and might turn out not to be the best way. 

 

 

[NotChinese]

Well this is true of most countries.

 

 

 

The last year of school is the job hunting year. This is really big in China, students spend a lot of time considering their options. 

 

Precisely what I'm doing right now 

 

Yeah I noticed the scholarship info isn't up to date, but it's the CSC website so not much else I can do really other than fire out a ton of emails.

[thechamp]

Also, have a look at Taiwan and the MOE scholarship there (it's administered by the British Association of Chinese Studies).

 

Taiwan is lovely and the people are very nice. Also, the better universities there are on par with some of the best universities in Asia (we all know by this stage of life that most of further education is related to the person not the institution, but recruitment doesn't reflect that - so it's important to consider it).

 

In computing (if that's what you want to get into) there are some really great people in Taiwan. There's a machine learning guy at Tai Da (forgot his name but you can find him) who's quite famous (enough so that I've forgotten his name!). ML initially uses lots of the linear algebra you'll have done in first year. Matlab will be a nice bridge to that. But do bear in mind that coming BACK is an issue for everyone. Perhaps in future it will be less and less though, as business moves Eastwards.