Fluent From Day One?

[RileyWilson]

OK, So I've started doing Pimsleur Spanish to try to understand what this fluency thing actually is (that after many years, I just know I don't have in Chinese,  i.e. spoken words mean nothing to me unless I translate them first).   I did Pimsleur Mandarin back 6 years ago, but in typical newbie fashion, I didn't get as much out of it as I should have.  A lot of rote "prefrontal cortex" type translation, but nothing that hooked up to any meaning.   

 

I am very carefully working my way through the Spanish course (typically doing each lesson 3-4x times until it's SOLID), and this time things are hooking up better (though certainly "no hablo muy bien!").   I was astounded to find myself intuitively understanding the little conversations at the beginning of each lesson, without having to translate,  which I certainly can't with Chinese.  Despite being able to read stuff at nearly conversational speed (i.e. without a shred of meaning sticking into my brain unless I translate character by character, which is now almost automatic).

 

Anyway, I have now begun to redo the Mandarin course from scratch again*, with the same emphasis on "hooking stuff up to meanings" in my brain, with some better success but it's still a struggle.  I'm not sure Pimsleur is really so great for me (for Chinese anyway), because it's essentially a course on how to translate stuff.   Which is not what I want.  I want to speak directly from my wants/thoughts/etc and form thoughts/images directly from what I'm listening to.

 

Anyway with all these messings around, I have this is thought experiment regarding fluency:

 

What if you were learning a language.   Call it Outer-North-Eastern-Kerlainian.   It has exactly one word:  "Ponta"  which means Hello/Goodbye.  So, effectively it's the easiest language in the world.  Obviously this language is trivial to learn,  but it's got me wondering about the nature of fluency.

 

If you could learn this language, and be fluent in it in 10 seconds flat, what does being fluent really mean?  Can you theoretically be fluent that quickly?  Is everyone learning a language effectively fluent in at least a few words of their target language.  Can one start fluent (but with exactly one word), and just keep adding one word at a time, always remaining fluent?   Is this what I always should have been doing?

 

In hindsight I've made a mess of learning Chinese.  I think I largely know what I have to restart my process now, but was just wondering what other's thought about fluency were?

 

* Doing 2 different pimsleur's at the same time is perhaps the worlds greatest mindfeck.

 

[Mouseneb]

I do think you can be quite fluent in some often used bits of a language, and completely unable to use others. For example, I'm very fluent in restaurant Chinese, but last year found myself in a meeting on tax law and couldn't follow the conversation other than to know it was about taxes and there were some large numbers in there.

So here's my advice: find ways to USE Chinese to communicate. I know it's difficult if you aren't in China, but it can be done. Get an online language partner. Find friends through Wechat. Watch Chinese language videos. Read the news in Chinese. Get away from the textbook and bring the language into real life. It will come alive when you start using it.

[stapler]

Sorry I'm not answering your question about fluency but I want to reply to another part of your post: the idea that you're having a much easier time learning Spanish than you did Chinese because of your method.

 

I think you're thinking about this the wrong way. Here's deal. Spanish is infinitely easier for a native English speaker to learn than Chinese. Now I will admit that having experience learning a language makes learning a second easier. But this isn't the heart of what's going on here. You haven't so much as "messed" up your Chinese language learning as you have started to learn a language that is much more closely related. I had the same experience with Russian. Though it is not quite as closely related to English as Spanish, there's large slabs of the language, the grammar, and phonology that are just way more intuitive for us English speakers. Off the bat I feel like it all automatically - as you put it - "hooks up".

 

To give a more real world example: This weekend I was hanging out with a Chinese, a German, and a Colombian. The Chinese has been in Australia for many many years, conducting all his work and daily life in English. The Colombian and German have never done anything more than a short holiday to an English speaking country. Guess who speaks better English? The Colombian has the best, closely followed by the German, and the Chinese is miles behind. None of these people are slow. They are all quite young. The reason why the Chinese person isn't as fluent as the others isn't because he lacks exposure, practice, or effort. It's just that the wall he has to climb to learn English is much, much, much, larger than it is for the other two.

 

I guess the only way to "test" this would be go learn French or Dutch or something the same way you started with Chinese to see if there is any difference. My money is on you having the same feeling as you do with Spanish, despite the method.

[Flickserve]

....Despite being able to read stuff at nearly conversational speed (i.e. without a shred of meaning sticking into my brain unless I translate character by character, which is now almost automatic).

Anyway, I have now begun to redo the Mandarin course from scratch again*, with the same emphasis on "hooking stuff up to meanings" in my brain, with some better success but it's still a struggle. I'm not sure Pimsleur is really so great for me (for Chinese anyway), because it's essentially a course on how to translate stuff. Which is not what I want. I want to speak directly from my wants/thoughts/etc and form thoughts/images directly from what I'm listening to.

Do you mean you can read Chinese but not understand the meaning? I think that happens a lot. There is a lot to be said for actually using the language. It's all very well speaking to someone over wechat / Skype but I personally find that very hard to pick up Chinese. Or rather, I see some limitations whereas people on the other side say I am doing well.

It took me quite a few attempts over a period of time to learn the phrase "握紧拳头". I just couldn't connect it and it's only four syllables. This was despite using it in context with native speakers of Chinese - more accurately, repeating it at the time was straightforward but remembering it for the next time was very hard. IMO for Chinese, constant and repeated exposure in real life situations is a real bonus.

[RileyWilson]

A. Sorry about my barely coherent brain-dump post above.  And all the grammatical errors therein.  I do know better, but built it rather non-linearly, and was slack in my proof reading.

 

B. Thank you all for your comments.   Very helpful.

 

C. There was definitely an "aha" moment when learning Spanish.    When learning Cosa = thing, Cosas = things.   Suddenly when drilling the difference between "Una Cosa" and "Dos Cosas",  the word Cosa hooked-up to a real concept in my head.   The meaning piggy-backed on the plural "s", which of course is totally ingrained in my English shaped brain.    Before this click moment, there was nothing else in Spanish that had made a real connection.    As mentioned I'm redoing my Pimsleur Manadarin course, and I am definitely getting the odd thing hooking up.   To the point where I accidently throw Chinese into my Spanish (and vice versa).   I take this as a good sign, that something is happening without having to force it.

 

D. I'm finding redoing the Mandarin course is probably easier than doing the Spanish course the first time.  Spanish is in many ways a nightmare of verb congugations and a zoo of particles.   Because I'm already familiar with the material and the sounds are in my head, the Mandarin redo is proving less mentally taxing.

 

E.  One of the reasons I start learning Spanish is that my roller skating coach at the time was Argentinian, and I was sort of hoping we could do the skating lessons in Spanish (apparently in the ice figure skating world, learning in Russian from a Russian coach is pretty common) .  She has since effectively fired me (for not being competition material) so that plan (to actually USE the Spanish) is kaput.   

 

F. I've starting writing a little blog here, to actually use my Chinese.   A connection to other members of humanity is a basic human need, so maybe that's enough for a start.  I do read a few pages of a novel every day,  which is why my reading is workable.   When I've been through Pimsleur again, I'm going to find an online chat partner, but I'm too crap to get anything out of that at the moment.

 

[lips]

#3 made some very good points.

 

 It has exactly one word: ... and be fluent in it in 10 seconds flat ... Can one start fluent (but with exactly one word), and just keep adding one word at a time, always remaining fluent?

 

For a native English speaker, these are not necessarily true, not for Chinese, and not even true for French or German.

[RileyWilson]

 

Do you mean you can read Chinese but not understand the meaning?

 

Yes, if I don't translate character by character, it's just string of a meaningless sounds.   Much like listening is.   I essentially have to "read it in English" to get the meaning.

 

It IS getting better, some things are better hooked up that others.   Really simple stuff is OK.   我不知道... on the beginning of sentences, that sort of thing I don't have to think about, but it doesn't take much complexity before I have to resort to translation, or else it's in-one-ear-and-out-the-other.

 

I think my biggest problem comes down to listening comprehension.  When I have that improved, my reading will become more fluent too, I'm sure,  since it's essentially just speaking to yourself when it comes down to it.

 

I have struggled to find simple listening practice resources, i.e. about the same level range as the little conversations at the beginning of Pimsleur units.   Anything meant for native speakers is certainly utterly inaccessible at this point (though I have struggled through a few episodes of 长恨歌 with alot of help from the subtitles)

[Flickserve]

Yes. Listening comprehension. This seems to be what it essentially boils down to and is what I am concentrating on. Have a look at my other recent posts detailing my efforts analysing short passages of a TV program of which the pdfs and transcript are available.

I listened to some other well known intermediate learning materials available from various websites. For my taste, some use too much English in their explanations (thereby wasting time) and I am not yet good enough for a wholely Chinese explanation.

[querido]

I have long understood our problem with the word "fluency" but the explanation is too long-winded.

There is a way to make it a useful word.

[imron]

Is everyone learning a language effectively fluent in at least a few words of their target language

...

and just keep adding one word at a time, always remaining fluent? 

This is what people promoting "Fluent in XXX amount of time" use to define 'fluency' e.g. What I can say I can say in a fluent manner.

 

I think this is poor form because it's not how most native speakers understand the meaning of 'fluent'.

 

For example, you might be able to speak what you know fluently, but then not be able to understand the fluently spoken reply, and not be able to ask follow up questions or continue the conversation 'fluently'.  This is why using such a definition is flawed in my opinion.  A much better option than using ill-defined words such as fluent is to use frameworks such as the CEFR which define capabilities in a much more detailed manner.

 

I also think using a language with a single word is not a great analogy.  Part of the difficulty in becoming fluent lies in the fact that there are so many words and meanings that need to be expressed, and to be 'fluent' you really need to be able to understand and be understood in a large proportion of general communication without prior preparation.

 

That being said, languages that have a small, consistent vocabulary are said to be easier to learn, and in fact Esperanto was created precisely with that in mind and is said to be very easy to learn.