Fuller's ILC Chapter 25 (孟子)

[somethingfunny]

Hello again.  It's been a while but I thought I might try and post some more from this book and see if anyone feels like talking about it.  Chapter 25 gives us three extracts from Mengzi with vocabulary lists but not comments or questions.  

 

I'm going to post these one at a time as the most interesting parts are probably going to be in the glossaries included and I can't seem to find the relevant ones online so I might have to type them out by hand.

 

孟子見梁惠王。王曰：「叟不遠千里而來，亦將有以利吾國乎？」孟子對曰：「王何必曰利？亦有仁義而已矣。王曰『何以利吾國』？大夫曰『何以利吾家』？士庶人曰『何以利吾身』？上下交征利而國危矣。萬乘之國弒其君者，必千乘之家；千乘之國弒其君者，必百乘之家。萬取千焉，千取百焉，不為不多矣。苟為後義而先利，不奪不饜。未有仁而遺其親者也，未有義而後其君者也。王亦曰仁義而已矣，何必曰利？」朱熹集注曰，此章言仁義根於人心之固有，天理之公也。利心生於無我之相形，人於之私也。循天理，則不求利而自無不利。徇人欲，則求利未得而害已隨之。

 

OK, so this passage has already been discussed here, but here I'd really like to talk about the commentary at the end of the passage.  Once we've had a little think about this, we can move on to the next passage.  

 

If anyone knows where I can get the 朱熹 commentary, please let me know.

 

So, any thoughts?

[Naphta]

You can get the commentary here. I don't have Fuller's book, but I studied this passage from Rouzer's. Does he include an extract of 朱熹's commentary with every text by Mencius? I think that's a very good idea.

[somethingfunny]

Thanks Naptha.  I see now that ctext does also have 朱熹's commentary - I was getting confused as Fuller seems to have edited the commentary itself, removing the first part "重言之，以結上文兩節之意" and adding in the "朱熹集注曰" and then also deleting everything after what I included above.

 

For this chapter, Fuller includes bits of commentary from 朱熹, 赵岐 and 焦循.

[somethingfunny]

OK, so rather than focus on the text, lets go straight to that bit of commentary.  It's quite short, so maybe a line-by-line translation would be useful:

 

朱熹集注曰，此章言仁義根於人心之固有，天理之公也。

The Zhu Xi commentary says:  This part (chapter?) speaks of the root of ren and yi in a person's "heart-mind", while the rules of nature are common to all.

 

利心生欲無我之相形，人於之私也。循天理，則不求利而自無不利。

The "profitable heart" is born from having no character of the self, 人欲之私也.  To follow the rules of nature is to not search for profit 而自無不利.

 

徇人欲，則求利未得而害已隨之。

To submit to human desires, this is to seek profit and not obtain it, but rather harm oneself.

 

Obviously I've had to attempt to translate a few terms here that people might not be happy with - please let me know how you would translate them.  I decided not to bother translating 仁 and 义, but feel free to comment on what you think Zhu Xi is talking about with these terms.  Finally, the two parts in the second sentence that I haven't translated leave me a little confused - any ideas?

 

Edit: Typo pointed out by Publius below

[Publius]

I suspect there's a typo.

Note these sentences are parallel in structure:

仁義根於人心之固有，天理之公也。

利心生於無我之相形，人欲之私也。

循天理，則不求利而自無不利。

徇人欲，則求利未得而害已隨之。

自無不利 means (反倒)自然而然無所不利. This 利 is slightly different than 'profit', more on the line of 順利、有利 or opposite of 害.

[somethingfunny]

Alright, lets see if anyone wants to take a shot at the next part which is taken from 公孙丑，上，六：

 

孟子曰：「人皆有不忍人之心。赵岐曰，言人人皆有不忍加惡於人之心也。先王有不忍人之心，斯有不忍人之政矣。以不忍人之心，行不忍人之政，治天下可運之掌上。 所以謂人皆有不忍人之心者，今人乍見孺子將入於井，皆有怵惕惻隱之心。非所以內交於孺子之父母也，非所以要譽於鄉黨朋友也，非惡其聲而然也。赵岐曰，孺子，未有知之小子。所以言人皆有是心，凡人暫見小孺子將入井，賢愚皆有驚駭之情，情發於中，非為人也，非惡有不仁之聲名，故怵惕也。由是觀之，無惻隱之心，非人也；無羞惡之心，非人也；無辭讓之心，非人也；無是非之心，非人也。 惻隱之心，仁之端也；羞惡之心，義之端也；辭讓之心，禮之端也；是非之心，智之端也。赵岐曰，端者，首也。朱熹曰，惻隱、羞惡、辭讓、是非，情也。仁、義、禮、智，性也。心，統性情者也。端，緒也。因其情之發，而性之本然可得而見，猶有物在中而緒見於外也。人之有是四端也，猶其有四體也。有是四端而自謂不能者，自賊者也。赵岐曰，自謂不能為善，自賊害其性，使不為善也。謂其君不能者，賊其君者也。赵岐曰，謂君不能為善而不匡正者，賊其君使陷惡也。凡有四端於我者，知皆擴而充之矣，若火之始然，泉之始達。苟能充之，足以保四海；苟不充之，不足以事父母。」

 

I've included the commentaries from Zhu Xi and Zhao Qi that Fuller includes in the book.  I couldn't find the commentary from Jiao Xun anywhere and he includes quite a lengthy extract of that commentary so I'm not going to type it all out - if anyone knows where I can get it, please let me know and I'll add it in.

[somethingfunny]

Here are some questions I have about this passage and the commentaries that people might like to think about (and maybe provide some answers):

 

1. 情發於中，非為人也，非惡有不仁之聲名，故怵惕也。I'm not sure at all what this means.  Th preceding part of this commentary translates roughly as "All those people who have this heart-mind, when they see the child enter the well, they will all be startled..."
2. In Zhu Xi's commentary we have a discussion of the difference between 情 and 性.  I've seen this discussed briefly elsewhere but was wondering if anyone wanted to go through this here?
3. 因其情之發，而性之本然可得而見，猶有物在中而緒見於外也。How would one translate this sentence?  I'd take the first part as: "It is because this 情 is created/generated, that the basic nature of 性 can be obtained and seen, it is like..."  but then once I hit that 中 I get stuck.
4. 自贼 - I don't know what this term means.  I could translate it as "to steal oneself", but I don't know what that means.
5. The final few sentences get a bit cryptic with talk of broadening and filling up the four tips, comparing this with the spark of a fire or the spring of a stream.  If you can fill it up, you can preserve the four seas, but if you can't fill it up, you can't serve your parents... Any comments?

I'll leave this up for a weeks or so to give anyone a chance to reply before posting the final passage from this chapter.

 

Merry Christmas.

[somethingfunny]

It doesn't seem like this is generating much interest at the moment, but in the interests of completeness, I'm going to go ahead and post the last part from this chapter of Fuller.

 

The last part of the Mencius Fuller gives us is the whole of part 7 from  孟子梁惠王上.  This has already been discussed in full here (and that is perhaps why there isn't much activity).  However, there are quite a few questions about both grammar and content that I raised in that thread that I believe I have now been able to resolve, which is one of the main reasons I'm going to go ahead and post this last part.

 

This is a fairly long extract, so I'll first post the text and then my own thoughts later today when I've got some time after work to put them all together.

 

齊宣王問曰：「齊桓、晉文之事可得聞乎？」

 

孟子對曰：「仲尼之徒無道桓、文之事者，是以後世無傳焉。臣未之聞也。無以，則王乎？」

 

曰：「德何如，則可以王矣？」

 

曰：「保民而王，莫之能禦也。」

 

曰：「若寡人者，可以保民乎哉？」

 

曰：「可。」

 

曰：「何由知吾可也？」

 

曰：「臣聞之胡齕曰，王坐於堂上，有牽牛而過堂下者，王見之，曰：『牛何之？』對曰：『將以釁鐘。』王曰：『舍之！吾不忍其觳觫，若無罪而就死地。』對曰：『然則廢釁鐘與？』曰：『何可廢也？以羊易之！』不識有諸？」

 

曰：「有之。」

 

曰：「是心足以王矣。百姓皆以王為愛也，臣固知王之不忍也。」

 

王曰：「然。誠有百姓者。齊國雖褊小，吾何愛一牛？即不忍其觳觫，若無罪而就死地，故以羊易之也。」

 

曰：「王無異於百姓之以王為愛也。以小易大，彼惡知之？王若隱其無罪而就死地，則牛羊何擇焉？」

 

王笑曰：「是誠何心哉？我非愛其財。而易之以羊也，宜乎百姓之謂我愛也。」

 

曰：「無傷也，是乃仁術也，見牛未見羊也。君子之於禽獸也，見其生，不忍見其死；聞其聲，不忍食其肉。是以君子遠庖廚也。」

 

王說曰：「《詩》云：『他人有心，予忖度之。』夫子之謂也。夫我乃行之，反而求之，不得吾心。夫子言之，於我心有戚戚焉。此心之所以合於王者，何也？」

 

曰：「有復於王者曰：『吾力足以舉百鈞』，而不足以舉一羽；『明足以察秋毫之末』，而不見輿薪，則王許之乎？」

 

曰：「否。」

 

「今恩足以及禽獸，而功不至於百姓者，獨何與？然則一羽之不舉，為不用力焉；輿薪之不見，為不用明焉，百姓之不見保，為不用恩焉。故王之不王，不為也，非不能也。」

 

曰：「不為者與不能者之形何以異？」

 

曰：「挾太山以超北海，語人曰『我不能』，是誠不能也。為長者折枝，語人曰『我不能』，是不為也，非不能也。故王之不王，非挾太山以超北海之類也；王之不王，是折枝之類也。老吾老，以及人之老；幼吾幼，以及人之幼。天下可運於掌。《詩》云：『刑于寡妻，至于兄弟，以御于家邦。』言舉斯心加諸彼而已。故推恩足以保四海，不推恩無以保妻子。古之人所以大過人者無他焉，善推其所為而已矣。今恩足以及禽獸，而功不至於百姓者，獨何與？權，然後知輕重；度，然後知長短。物皆然，心為甚。王請度之！抑王興甲兵，危士臣，構怨於諸侯，然後快於心與？」

 

王曰：「否。吾何快於是？將以求吾所大欲也。」

 

曰：「王之所大欲可得聞與？」王笑而不言。

 

曰：「為肥甘不足於口與？輕煖不足於體與？抑為采色不足視於目與？聲音不足聽於耳與？便嬖不足使令於前與？王之諸臣皆足以供之，而王豈為是哉？」

 

曰：「否。吾不為是也。」

 

曰：「然則王之所大欲可知已。欲辟土地，朝秦楚，莅中國而撫四夷也。以若所為求若所欲，猶緣木而求魚也。」

 

王曰：「若是其甚與？」

 

曰：「殆有甚焉。緣木求魚，雖不得魚，無後災。以若所為，求若所欲，盡心力而為之，後必有災。」

 

曰：「可得聞與？」

 

曰：「鄒人與楚人戰，則王以為孰勝？」

 

曰：「楚人勝。」

 

曰：「然則小固不可以敵大，寡固不可以敵眾，弱固不可以敵彊。海內之地方千里者九，齊集有其一。以一服八，何以異於鄒敵楚哉？蓋亦反其本矣。今王發政施仁，使天下仕者皆欲立於王之朝，耕者皆欲耕於王之野，商賈皆欲藏於王之市，行旅皆欲出於王之塗，天下之欲疾其君者皆欲赴愬於王。其若是，孰能禦之？」

 

王曰：「吾惛，不能進於是矣。願夫子輔吾志，明以教我。我雖不敏，請嘗試之。」

 

曰：「無恆產而有恆心者，惟士為能。若民，則無恆產，因無恆心。苟無恆心，放辟，邪侈，無不為已。及陷於罪，然後從而刑之，是罔民也。焉有仁人在位，罔民而可為也？是故明君制民之產，必使仰足以事父母，俯足以畜妻子，樂歲終身飽，凶年免於死亡。然後驅而之善，故民之從之也輕。今也制民之產，仰不足以事父母，俯不足以畜妻子，樂歲終身苦，凶年不免於死亡。此惟救死而恐不贍，奚暇治禮義哉？王欲行之，則盍反其本矣。五畝之宅，樹之以桑，五十者可以衣帛矣；雞豚狗彘之畜，無失其時，七十者可以食肉矣；百畝之田，勿奪其時，八口之家可以無飢矣；謹庠序之教，申之以孝悌之義，頒白者不負戴於道路矣。老者衣帛食肉，黎民不飢不寒，然而不王者，未之有也。」

[Luxi]

I've only just seen this thread! I am interested but, as I am so far behind, will have to go at my own pace and may never catch up. Still, I think I can manage to follow your coming posts Somethingfunny, so don't give up!

 

Now... pelt me with abuse if you wish...Thing is, I was reading the last post and noticed a popup from Google Translate in Chrome offering me to translate the Chinese. "Right, Google," I thougt, "if you insist..." I clicked, and this came out, and more, much more of it, but I'm sure this is enough to get the gist of it  Sorry, Master Meng!

 

Qixuan Wang asked: "Qi Huan, Jin Wen things can be heard about it?"

 

Mencius said to him, "Nunnik has no way to live.

 

Saying, "If you are a German, you can be king?"

 

Said: "protect the people and the king, Mo can also Royal."

 

Say: "If the widowed person, can protect the people almost?"

 

Said: "Yes."

 

"How can I know?"

 

Said: "Chen Wen of the Hu said, the king sat in the hall, there are cows and the church below, see the king, said:" The cattle of the? "Said:" The bell will be defensive. "Wang said: "I can not bear to see it, if not guilty and die." Said: "But then defy bell and?" Said: "How can waste also to sheep easy!" Do not know all?

 

Said: "Yes."

 

Obviously Google Translate's smart neural whatsit isn't up to Classical Chinese, but I think it's hilarious (Mods, feel free delete if you feel Google translate is out of order)

 

[somethingfunny]

Oh dear Luxi, looks like Google translate still has some way to go, although we can't really blame it as modern and literary chinese are significantly different.  I guess the irony is that this is a text that has been heavily translated and so if Google just searched for a translation rather than attempt its own, it would do far better.

 

Anyway, back to the important stuff!

 

I don't have many questions, in addition to the ones I raised in the Rouzer thread.  There are a couple of grammar points that I'd like to highlight though.

 

1. 以若所為求若所欲，猶緣木而求魚也。This is one of the best lines in the text I think.  Mencius is stating that to use all of your efforts to seek all of your desires is like climbing a tree to catch a fish (even worse infact!).  I originally wanted to translate this as a general principle but started to feel that it didn't make sense to do so - after all, if your desires are correct, then surely you should pursue them with all of your effort.  However, I think he is specifically saying "For you to use all of your powers to pursue your specific desires that we have been discussing, is pointless."  
2. 以若所為求若所欲，猶緣木而求魚也。朱熹's commentary tells us that we should read 若 as 如此, which helps, kind of.
3. 無不為已 I previously understood this as "there is nothing that they will not do", but I'd like to just highlight that we're seeing significantly different uses of the character 为.  Here I take it to be fairly negative.
4. 此惟救死而恐不贍，奚暇治禮義哉？This line still has me a little stumped.  The gist, I think, is "The people only have time to keep themselves alive, where do they have the time to be concerned with 礼仪？" Can I take 救死 to mean "avoid death"?  What is 此惟?  What about 治?  Shouldn't this be what the King is doing, not the ordinary people?

OK, next I would like to address some of the questions I raised previously that I have now resolved.  I'd like to add here that anybody who is studying this kind of stuff by themselves will benefit a lot from re-reading these important texts.  I've looked back at some of the stuff I posted before and can't stop myself from cringing.  

 

1. I said: "刑於寡妻，至於兄弟，以御於家邦。I've got this is: "If I punish my wife, this will extend to my brother, and use this to control the state." " I couldn't have been more wrong here. 刑 does not mean 'punish', it means 'teach' or 'provide a model'.  
2. I said: "無他焉，善推其所為而已矣 Seems like there is some redundancy in this line.  Am I right?" No you are not.  无他焉 means "there is not other reason" so in this context he is saying, "In ancient times, the reason that people were able to surpass other common people, was nothing else but that they were able to extend their goodness and desires, and nothing else."
3. I said: "樂歲終身飽 and 樂歲終身苦 - not quite sure what this 乐岁 means."  It means to have a good harvest, as opposed to 凶年.
4. I said: "I know I'm being a little disingenuous put the crux of this philosophy does appear to be lacking in any practical policy.  Treat the people like you treat your own family isn't really going to cut it.  Sure, it's a nice idea, but the reason I am able (in the Mencian massage-providing sense of the word) to treat my family the way that I do, is because there aren't many of them.  "  Wrong, wrong, wrong.  Here is where doing extra reading and study will help.  What I've written here is an attack on Mohist philosophy.  Mencian philosophy is different in that he proposes first treating your own parents with the respect they deserve, and then this will extend itself outwards to others.  If you look for it in the text, you'll see it.

Finally, I'd like to add a few more thoughts:

1. Towards the end, Mencius gives a nice bit about the importance of 恒产 and 恒心.  It seems to go a little something like this: "A wise and clever leader will control the livelihood of the people and force them to respect their elders and look after their wives and children.  In a good harvest they will eat well, and in a bad harvest they will avoid death.  This will cause them to tend towards goodness and this is why they will easily follow (然後驅而之善，故民之從之也輕 - great line! Although, can you say what each 之 is doing?).  Today, the people's livelihood's are controlled, but they do not respect their elders or look after their wives and children and as a result a good harvest is still a difficult year and in times of famine they can not avoid death..."  Mencius doesn't seem to indicate why the people are acting different in each case, after all in both cases their livelihood is being controlled and isn't this the root of good governance?
2. On a personal level, I think one of the reasons I enjoy reading this stuff so much (apart from all the cool Chinese I learn) is that in today's world there seems to be very little discussion of ethics by the people in charge.  I think he'd have to update his ideas a little bit, but I think Mencius could have just as much of a good time travelling the modern world airing his views to the powerful on where they are going wrong. 

That's probably all I'll post for a while now.  I'm going to carry on with Fuller (the next chapter is Zhuangzi!) but I don't think I'll put it up on here.  Once I'm done with Fuller I'm hoping to read the Mencius in full, although this is a very, very long term goal.

[Luxi]

Somethingfunny, thank you very much for your tremendous notes on this and other chapters from Fuller's ILC! I only just found them, but they come very timely. I ordered the book yesterday. It's obviously way over my head, but Classical Chinese was my best subject at college, long long ago, and I might be able to push myself up to this level - your notes will help a lot, thanks in advance!

 

The Mencius is a great read and not so difficult, much clearer than many other classics. It's also interesting, and as you point out, very relevant to the times we're living. I'm sure you'll be able to read it straight away. The Zhuangzi is difficult and I think requires a lot of background knowledge and notes, but it is very beautiful. I aspire to be able to read the core chapters in the original one day.

 

As for Google Translate, Classical Chinese is not a popular subject and those who indulge must be more the paper book type.Therefore, Google's  database is probably too lean to be much use with this material.