3rd tone runs

[Apollys]

I have run across a couple of third tone runs in which the audio samples I am given seem to use some awkward pronunciation. I was wondering if you guys can enlighten me as to how to properly tackle these.

给我打电话。

请给我打电话。

你可以给我打电话吗?

我可以买你喜欢的那个。

我只想好好爱一个人。

哪里可以买自行车?

我们明天再谈，或者你给我打电话，或者我给你打，都行。

(Hooray, I can edit my posts now, added more examples.)

[calibre2001]

你可以给我打电话吗?

nǐ kěyǐ gěi wǒ dǎ diànhuà ma? --> nǐ kéyǐ géi wǒ dǎ diànhuà ma?

我可以买你喜欢的那个。

wǒ kěyǐ mǎi nǐ xǐhuān de nàgè. --> wǒ kéyǐ mái nǐ xǐhuān de nàgè.

[Apollys]

Why?

[Apollys]

Here's another one which is bothering me.

我只想好好爱一个人。

[XiaoXi]

The first one I had the same as calibre2001 but I had the second one as:

wǒ kéyí mǎi ní xǐhuān de nàge

 

Also surely you meant the last ge as neutral tone, calibre2001?

[Apollys]

So, two different answers and no explanation for either... Guys please explain how I'm supposed to approach these in general. Or at least why you chose the pronunciation you did.

[艾墨本]

From a 普通话 training book that my students use to prepare for their 普通话 test:

 

There are two combinations when it comes to three third tones in a row.

1) 【二，二】三  --  In which the first two characters form one word and the second is a word on its own. Written in the book as: （上声—上声）+上声：双单格：前两个上声读成阳平

选举法，古典美，勇敢者，管理组

2) 半三【二，三】  -- In which the second and thrid characters form one word and the first is a word on its own. Written in the book as: 上声+（上声—上声）：单双格：第一个上声读成半上，第二个上声读成阳平）

党小组，小拇指，纸老虎

 

It doesn't offer advice on more than three tones in a row but this has helped me figure out how to parse situations like the one above when I lack a native audio recording. It is also worth noting that I had a teacher whose PhD was researching how natives broke up several third tones in a row. Her conclusion, no set rules.

[Apollys]

So this seems to suggest we should apply tone change rules to the words themselves first, and then to the phrase secondarily. This is actually much easier than other things I have read (such as alternating 2-3 tones), because we can just remember words as a whole with their tone changes. For example, I can just remember words like 可以, 永远, 等等, as being pronounced 2-3 (as long as I still keep in the back of my mind the innate pronunciation of each character for general use).

I'll try to gather more data as I run across more sentences too.

给我打电话 still seems to be a total mystery to me though.

[歐博思]

 

 

Here's another one which is bothering me.

我只想好好爱一个人。

 

I'd most likely say it as: wo3 zhi2 xiang3 hao3hao5 ai4 yi ge ren2. I think it's due to how people naturally break up longer utterances into smaller little 'chunks'. Those chunks then still follow the rules you mentioned above.

 

     I  <end of chunk - so dropping 3rd> .... I what?

 

     I <end of chunk> just want to <end of chunk - dropping 3rd> ...... I just want to what?

 

     I <end of chunk> just want to <end of chunk> haohao* ai yi ge ren <end of chunk>

 

*reduplicated adverbs are sometimes changed to neutral tone*

 

 

 

edit:::::: Didn't add much more than #7 already said 

[Apollys]

That is the pronunciation my audio sample has as well, so maybe the lesson here is there are some patterns that I will pick up on after more exposure (for now it just really confuses me, haha).

What do you think if we take out 只. Is it going to be wo2 xiang3 hao3hao5... or is there any chance of it changing to wo3 xiang2 hao3hao5...?

[eddyf]

Here are some patterns I've been able to identify.

Pronouncing two syllables in a row as 3rd tones should never happen. If the following syllable is being pronounced as a 3rd tone, then the preceding syllable has to become a 2nd tone, even if they are different "chunks" (unless there is really a break between them when you're speaking, like a comma). However, if the following syllable is being pronounced as a 2nd tone, then the preceding syllable may be a 2nd tone or a 3rd tone depending on the situation.

In two character words like 可以 or 永远, the first syllable is always pronounced 2nd tone. It's never pronounced as a 3rd tone. Also, I think a 3rd tone before such words is always pronounced as a 3rd tone. For example wo3 ke2 yi3. Essentially, these two character words follow the same sandhi rules as words that are really 2-3, like 还有, 没有, etc.

Beyond that, you can group the run into chunks, where every chunk must have two or more syllables (except possibly the first chunk), and within each chunk, every syllable is 2nd tone except the last which is 3rd tone. How you do the chunking is kind of hard to pin down and might vary between speakers and depending on what information you want to emphasize in the sentence.

So:

ni3 ke2 yi3 gei2 wo2 da3

or

ni3 ke2 yi2 gei2 wo2 da3

wo3 zhi2 xiang2 hao3 hao1

or

wo2 zhi2 xiang2 hao3 hao1

but not wo2 zhi3 xiang2 hao3 hao1 because 只 feels like it needs to be grouped with 想 one way or another.

[Apollys]

Interesting observations, however my audio samples unfortunately don't follow that pattern. They tend to agree more with what people have posted. E.g. wo3 zhi2 xiang3 hao3hao... ke2yi3 gei2 wo3 da3 电话...

[eddyf]

Can you upload an example audio sample perhaps? The observation that you can't have two consecutive 3rd tones is honestly the part that I'm most sure about. One way or another the first one has to end higher than the second one starts, which would not happen if they were both 3rd tones (that is, "half" 3rd tones by some people's terminology).

[Apollys]

I don't have access to my computer at the moment, just using my phone. I'll dig up the audio samples later on this week

[anonymoose]

In my non-expert opinion, I think you can get pretty close by just remembering words as a whole with their tone changes, as you said.

 

However, remember that the concept of a word in chinese is not as clear-cut as in English. In English, anything with spaces on either side is considered to be a word, and thus, "give me" is unequivocally two words, and from an anglocentric point of view, it would seem absurd to think anything else. However, there is no absolute reason why this must be so, and in Spanish, for example, "give me" is "dame". Likewise, I think 给我 is subconsciously treated as a word, or one unit, and thus the pronunciation is "géi wǒ" regardless of surrounding tones. However, I believe what is considered to be a single unit may vary from speaker to speaker, which would account for some inconsistency between different speakers.

 

Incidentally, as similar principle seems to affect Shanghainese, even though the specific tone rules are completely different from Mandarin.

[Apollys]

Yeah I feel like since 给我 is a really common construction, native speakers subconsciously pair them together to form a 2-3 unit (that was actually the exact same conclusion I came to, but it's still fuzzy, e.g. I think I heard a simple 给我打电话 as 3-2-3...)

I also like the analogy to Spanish, I was fluent 5 or 7 years ago, but I've noticed since I started studying Chinese, forming sentences in Spanish has become much less natural. My mind wants to form the thoughts in Chinese instead haha.

[Apollys]

How would you guys read the tones for 你会说几种语言?

Seems like this might be another case of pairing, 几种 being a set 2-3 pair in native speakers' minds.

(Oops, sorry for double post, using forums on my phone is still a bit awkward for me. )

[Flickserve]

How would you guys read the tones for 你会说几种语言?

Seems like this might be another case of pairing, 几种 being a set 2-3 pair in native speakers' minds.

)

Agree

[eddyf]

几种语言 : ji2 zhong2 yu3 yan2

The only thing that I think you guys are missing or not sufficiently emphasizing about the fixed pairings is, it's not always going to be 2-3. It might also be 2-2. The first syllable is fixed at 2 but the second syllable might also become a 2 if it's followed by another 3rd tone. Like I said earlier, think of it as following the same rules as words that are really 2-3 before applying sandhi.

[Apollys]

Yeah, I took that as a given. A third tone at the end of a word is always subject to change.