who is 代表ing whom?

[Lu]

Another Sanmao question. Sanmao has encountered a slave kept by a rich Sahrawi in the Spanish Sahara. She goes to a secretary she knows in the local government to express her anger about this: how can the Spanish government allow slavery in its own colony? The secretary says: 'We can barely keep the peace as it is. Just stay out of it. 那些主人都是部落裏的首長，馬德里國會，都是那些有勢力的撒哈拉威人去代表，我們能說什麼。'

 

My question: who is representing whom? Are the powerful Sahrawi tribal leaders in the parliament in Madrid representing the Sahrawi, or are those tribal leaders representing the Madrid parliament in the Sahara?

 

I couldn't figure it out and asked my language partner, who said: the Sahrawi leaders represent the Madrid parliament. But now the English translator writes 'The most powerful Sahrawi serve as representatives in the congress in Madrid.' So now I'm not sure again.

 

Thanks for any help!

[Publius]

The English translator is right.

[陳德聰]

1 hour ago, Lu said:

馬德里國會，都是那些有勢力的撒哈拉威人去代表

 

都是那些有勢力的撒哈拉威人去（馬德里國會）代表

[Lu]

Thank you both! I've changed my translation.

[anonymoose]

Can't say I've noticed 代表 used without an object before.

[dwq]

I understand it as  都是那些有勢力的撒哈拉威人去(作/做)代表

It is not quite correct without 作/做 but people sometimes omit it.

 

[陳德聰]

I suspect that somewhere in the previous sentence it is established that the Sahrawi people are a tangible entity in the common ground of the speakers which would allow the speaker to say that.

[Lu]

「秘書先生，在西班牙的殖民地上，你們公然允許蓄奴，真是令人感佩。」
秘書聽了，唉的嘆了一口長氣，他說：「別談了，每次撒哈拉威人跟西班牙人打架，我們都把西班牙人關起來。對付這批暴民，我們安撫還來不及，哪裏敢去過問他們自己的事，怕都怕死了。」

「你們是幫兇，何止是不管，用奴隸築路，發主人工錢，這是笑話。」
「唉！干妳什麼事？那些主人都是部落裏的首長，馬德里國會，都是那些有勢力的撒哈拉威人去代表，我們能說什麼。」

 

The Sahrawi are the local population, and the slaves are owned by Sahrawi. Both speakers are aware of this.

[L-F-J]

代表 indeed has an object; 馬德里國會! It is just moved to the front to be emphasized.

 

馬德里國會，都是那些有勢力的撒哈拉威人去代表 ＝ 都是那些有勢力的撒哈拉威人去代表馬德里國會

 

The Sahrawi tribal leaders are being paid wages as slavedrivers, but since powerful Sahrawi also serve as representatives in the congress in Madrid, there's nothing anyone can do about it.

[陳德聰]

59 minutes ago, L-F-J said:

powerful Sahrawi also serve as representatives in the congress in Madrid

 

Interesting that you get this meaning from 都是那些有實力的撒哈拉威人去代表馬德里國會, rather than the English translation I would have expected from parsing the sentence this way: "powerful Sahrawi also serve as representatives of the congress in Madrid".

 

Either way, it seems that the writing is not explicit, and you are expected to fill in the blanks. According to logic, it would not make sense that they represent the Madrid congress, because they are the colonised.

[L-F-J]

You're probably right. I don't really know their history.

 

Upon reread of the whole passage I find the only logical possibility for 代表's object are the 主人 who are 首長 in the 部落 and are earning wages as slavedrivers.

 

That is, the whole translation would be;

 

那些主人都是部落裏的首長，馬德里國會，都是那些有勢力的撒哈拉威人去代表，我們能說什麼。

"Those masters are all tribal leaders, [and at the] Madrid Congress, they are all represented by the most powerful Sahrawi. What can we say?"

[Lu]

51 minutes ago, 陳德聰 said:

According to logic, it would not make sense that they represent the Madrid congress, because they are the colonised.

That still makes some sense to me. I originally pictured it as: the Spanish congress makes the laws and relies on the tribal leaders in the Sahara to actually hold the people to it. In that sense, the tribal leaders would be representing the congress, and the congress would be somewhat dependent on them (and thus don't want to ruffle their feathers).

 

LFJ, that makes sense, with the powerful Sahrawi representing not just the Sahrawi in general, but the slave-keeping rich Sahrawi.

[L-F-J]

Chinese grammar can be very ambiguous like that, with no conjugation, subject or object omissions, and very little punctuation that makes any sense.

 

I guess you just have to glean the meaning from context clues.

[dwq]

 

14 hours ago, Lu said:

LFJ, that makes sense, with the powerful Sahrawi representing not just the Sahrawi in general, but the slave-keeping rich Sahrawi.

 

"那些主人都是部落裏的首長，馬德里國會，都是那些有勢力的撒哈拉威人去代表……"

 

Actually, what this is saying is

 

那些有勢力的撒哈拉威人 = 部落裏的首長 = 那些主人

 

Because 那些 implies what follows is something the speaker and the listener both know about and the slave owners, being tribal leaders, are the only powerful Sahrawi mentioned.

 

Those powerful Sahrawi (who are tribal leaders and slave owners) serves as representatives in the Madrid congress (if you accept 去代表 = 去作代表).

 

They are supposedly representing their people, all the 撒哈拉威人, however they probably are only looking after their own interests.

 

[陳德聰]

7 hours ago, L-F-J said:

Chinese grammar can be very ambiguous like that, with no conjugation, subject or object omissions, and very little punctuation that makes any sense.

 

Perhaps I'm just being contrary but I kind of categorically oppose that idea haha. Yes to ambiguity, but I think the interaction with the "context" and the facts that make up the common understanding between speakers is generally pretty logical and can be explained in a way that makes sense.

 

47 minutes ago, dwq said:

They are supposedly representing their people, all the 撒哈拉威人, however they probably are only looking after their own interests.

 

Yeah, I think the idea is that the colony's reps in the congress are Sahrawi, and not Spanish, so they will fight to keep their way of life through their participation in the political system vs. the alternative where there are Spanish people appointed to represent the area and they essentially just force their laws on them. Sounds kind of like the Sahrawi are too badass for that though.

[Lu]

9 hours ago, 陳德聰 said:

Yes to ambiguity, but I think the interaction with the "context" and the facts that make up the common understanding between speakers is generally pretty logical and can be explained in a way that makes sense.

Only this is a problem when the reader is not all that familiar with the facts known by the speakers, as is the case here. My native-speaking language partner, familiar with Chinese but not with Spanish colonial policy, misunderstood this sentence.

[Daniel Tsui]

那些主人都是部落裏的首長，馬德里國會，都是那些有勢力的撒哈拉威人去代表，我們能說什麼。

部落裏的首長=有勢力的撒哈拉威人=馬德里國會

Powerful Sahrawi implies to the tribal leaders, and they are the representative in the Madrid parliament, it means that the Madrid parliament is controlled by tribal leaders. So the three group are the same people. it writes like this to emphasize that the area is totally controlled by those bad guys.  
去代表 here means 去馬德里國會当代表， it's oral expression, many parts can be omitted. 

[Lu]

Thanks Daniel! Good to see another native speaker confirm this interpretation.

[Daniel Tsui44]

You're welcome. I'm new here, trying to help and improve my English. Anything question about learning Chinese, feel free to ask.