Are postgraduate diplomas (PGDip) fully recognised in China?

[NotChinese]

Following on from this thread which I made a few months ago, and owing to this recent interesting news, I've decided to go ahead and get the masters that I was previously having muddled thoughts about, as it will now greatly open the doors for my end goal of living and working in China.

 

However, I want to make myself properly employable and as such would rather not go for the masters in theoretical physics (which is my current BSc). I've instead found a different course  - "Computational Fluid Dynamics**" - which in my opinion should lay a pretty good foundation for getting into a fair few engineering and/or computing sorts of roles.

 

The problem is that this route would mean abandoning my current university (where the masters is tacked onto my degree and is hence covered by student loans), and instead going and self-funding at the place offering the masters I want, which is obviously a gigantic financial hit. Due to this, I've seen that they have a cheaper 'PGDip' option, which covers all the same material as the masters but simply doesn't include a personal research project at the end.

 

Given that I've never had much interest in being a researcher, and given that the PGDip is a good couple of thousand pounds cheaper, I'm now wondering how Chinese authorities would view such a qualification. Wikipedia tells me that PGDips are given and recognised in a lot of major countries, but not China. Does anyone know how PGDips are seen over there? I suppose the hint is in the name - postgraduate diploma - but if Chinese authorities haven't heard of the thing  (how do you even say it in Chinese?? All I know is the 本科，硕士，博士 strata), they might not be so willing to grant work permits and the likes. 

 

Thoughts and advice much appreciated, thanks!

 

**

Spoiler

Some may remember in the previous thread I showed an interest in Computer Science. I looked into that route and, although I've picked up a good amount of coding ability recently, I don't think my wider 'computer science' knowledge is sufficient enough to dive into a masters on that subject. Computational fluid dynamics sounds like the best of both worlds to me, using all the skills I've picked up so far.

 

[Angelina]

The problem is that this route would mean abandoning my current university (where the masters is tacked onto my degree and is hence covered by student loans), and instead going and self-funding at the place offering the masters I want, which is obviously a gigantic financial hit. 

 

 

Why don't you find a scholarship?

[roddy]

Because scholarships do not litter the ground, to be picked up at will. 

 

Get the Masters. It makes a lot of sense - it's an (arbitrary, but still real) cut-off point for consideration for jobs and further study, and there's going to be a (perhaps unfair) assumption that you were unable to complete the research component. It's also entirely possible that over the years China will toughen up requirements - what gets you a visa today may not work in five years. 

[NotChinese]

Yeah, scholarships are definitely not chucked around like confetti!

 

True about it appearing as if the research aspect was a failure on my part. Annoying really since I actually could fail due to it being a thing I don't really want.

 

I guess I'll think things over. The course I'm looking at is quite specific with a lot of scope for the future in the industries it applies to. The only bar is going to be the "it's not a 'real' masters" prejudice you mentioned, for visas etc (not just in China but other places too). Bit of a pain really but if that's the way it has to be I'll likely try to go for the masters.

 

Cheers!

[LinZhenPu]

I wonder how they will view Masters degrees that contain little to no research component? 

Such as this degree: http://www.canberra.edu.au/coursesandunits/course?course_cd=340JA&version_number=1

(Don't read the introduction page, it is erroneous) 

[NotChinese]

I suspect the primary issue will be the simple naming of the thing.

 

It's for this same reason that degree mills ever came into existence. People just wanted, or needed, something that had the right words on it.

 

A guy I worked with said he did English teaching in Japan a long time ago, then the law changed so only graduates were allowed in. His mate printed a degree in 'needlework' and got away with it.

 

A bit beside the point, I know, but it's to highlight how the major hurdle here is likely to be the simple naming of the certificate, rather than the content of the course itself.

 

(And no I would not recommend printing a false degree as a workaround!)

[Guest realmayo]

UK & Ireland loopholes?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Arts_(Oxbridge_and_Dublin)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Arts_(Scotland)
 

Quote

The degree of Master of Arts in Scotland typically refers to a four-year undergraduate Honours degree in the arts, humanities or social sciences awarded by one of the ancient universities of Scotland

 

 

Quote

In the universities of Oxford, Cambridge and Dublin, Bachelors of Arts with Honours of these universities are promoted to the degree of Master of Arts or Master in Arts (MA) on application after six or seven years' seniority as members of the university (including years as an undergraduate).

 

[roddy]

I have the Scottish one - it might work, until they tell you they also need the certificate for your undergrad degree...

[Angelina]

not sure if that will work

 

http://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/qi489q0qjQAtKIuMvEvI3Q

 

 

用人单位聘用符合条件的外籍高校毕业生，应向当地人力资源社会保障部门或外国专家归口管理部门提出申请，并提供以下材料：

（一）拟聘用者履历证明；

（二）聘用意向书（包括意向薪酬）；

（三）聘用原因报告（包括当地公共就业和人才服务机构面向国内劳动者公开发布招聘信息满30天的证明）；

（四）拟聘用者健康状况证明；

（五）拟聘用者无犯罪记录证明；

（六）拟聘用者所取得的学历学位证明材料；

（七）拟聘用者所就读学校出具的在校期间无不良行为记录（境外高校外籍毕业生可免除）和成绩证明材料；

（八）拟聘用者6个月内正面免冠照片。

 

[LinZhenPu]

14 hours ago, roddy said:

 

I have the Scottish one - it might work, until they tell you they also need the certificate for your undergrad degree...

 

You're quite the dark horse Roddy. Pity you don't have the time to put yourself through the process for the benefit of giving us information.

But Roddy - what about other people who have earned a Master's degree but never got a Bachelor's degree? It's not unheard of in Australia. People who have worked in industry for a number of years at a decent level are often able to apply and be accepted into graduate level further studies based on several years of work experience in a field related to the are of study. Many of these people may not have even finished high school. While many won't be admitted straight into a full Master's but rather a Graduate Certificate program, the system in Australia is such that with good grades, they can apply continue on to a Postgraduate/Graduate Diploma, and again with good grades they can apply to do a Master degree. People HAVE done this and they have many years of experience and the requisite academic credentials so I hope the new system is not going to filter out these individuals who have a masters but no bachelors because they will be among the top most skilled and experienced and exactly who China wants to attract!

 

Further rant:

A Master's degree can meet the eligibility requirement for Master by Research which can articulate into a PhD. If it doesn't articulate, you can still apply to undertake a PhD program if you have not a PhD but do have a Master degree with a significant research component. So yes, in Australia it is very feasible to complete PhD without ever having finished high school and due to the way the system is set up actually possible to complete a PhD without even ever having completed a Bachelor's degree. There are probably a few PhDs out there who never finished high school and never did a Bachelor's degree but instead worked their way up to a Master's degree from the graduate certificate level and then continued on from there as a research student. I'd love to see the average Chinese university graduate trying to wrap their head around that one.

[roddy]

3 hours ago, LinZhenPu said:

what about other people who have earned a Master's degree but never got a Bachelor's degree?

Well then you're in a Kafkaesque nightmare. Can't run a decent authoritarian bureaucracy without a few folk trapped in Kafkaesque nightmares, that's what I always say. Yes, I know it's inconvenient sir, but the thing is, I don't make the rules. I just enforce them arbitrarily with no thought to the consequences.

 

I doubt it'd actually be a problem, unless you were genuinely presenting an undergrad masters as a post-grad. In which case you're a bit dodgy anyway, so you'll probably just get a fake undergrad certificate. 

[Lu]

I have an MA but no BA. When I started university in 2000, the Dutch system was a bit different: you'd study four years (or actually, accumulated four years of credits) and then you were a doctorandus. By the time I finished (2006) the system was being transitioned to a BA-MA setup. The doctorandus degree I got is officially equivalent to an MA degree, and I can call myself either. When I moved to Taiwan (2007) you needed an MA degree to get a work visa, and my diploma worked just fine for that. I suppose if I'm ever asked for a BA diploma, I'd try and get some kind of official letter from the government explaining what happened.

[Angelina]

I assume this happened because those international students who are studying in China now do not have much work experience and when they graduate they can't start working under the ABC ranking. 

[NotChinese]

Quote

When I moved to Taiwan (2007) you needed an MA degree to get a work visa, and my diploma worked just fine for that.

 

Well this is definitely interesting.

 

Another thought is that if I were to get the PgDip instead of the 'full masters', I could use crafty wording on any official forms. i.e. "Postgraduate degree in XXXX subject from XXXX university", which truthfully meets the official requirement to be a postgraduate. 

 

Also, the place I'm wanting to go to is a postgrads-only institution, so it's rather easy to prove that everything is entirely above bachelor level.

 

But yes, the point still stands about standards possibly changing in future. Then again, that's always the case. There'll be people who got a 'plain' bachelors degree many years ago who used that as their ticket to go places. Now it seems that bar is no longer such an easy one to hop over.

 

I've put a few questions to the institution I'm applying to, regarding what they believe the 'status' of PgDips are over masters, particularly regarding the industries I could look to be working in, rather than it just being a 'masters for the sake of a masters'. Just waiting for a reply.

 

(Also - wow - I thought I'd lost all the text in this response because I was taken to a 'sorry, site being upgraded' screen after pressing submit. Very annoyed, until now when I've logged back into the site and seen the whole post was saved for me prior to submission. Awesome!)

[NotChinese]

Small update to this thread:

 

I had the brainwave idea to see what Baidu has to say about PGDips.

 

Results were a bit wavy but largely positive, however some opinions had a worrying slant towards it being markedly not your usual masters. On the plus side, I found PGDip is classed as one below doctorate by Hong Kong standards, which is certainly a step in the right direction. Still, the descriptions seem a little loose. Some comments made specific mention of it being a step below masters (which is true but kind of detracts from the truth a bit).

 

I then looked into my current degree route - the one I wanted to bail out of after 3rd year - which is an 'integrated masters' and results in an 'MPhys' qualification. I've recently learned that this is also a bit of an oddity in the graduate world - it's a UK specific certificate and, although it has 'masters' in the name and is officially on par with masters levels according to the UK Higher Education Framework (Level 7), it's apparently classed as only an undergrad course! I think the reasoning is 50% due to it being a direct follow-on year from a bachelors, and also because it has 60 credits less than a proper masters. This actually puts it at the same level as a PGDip, with the only difference being that the MPhys does have a research/project element. (Related versions of what I'm doing are MSci, MEng or MChem - these too are actually undergrads, but I'm sure most would be shocked to learn this!)

 

However - the good news - putting "MPhys" in Baidu translates directly to 物理学硕士. So that's how China must largely see it, no quibbles there! Probably the 'M' in 'MPhys' that does it, heh.

 

Currently thinking I'll just hang on another year and do the physics MPhys 'masters' where I am now. It isn't quite as employable skills-wise as the PGDip I was looking at but it's still a technical degree, funding is far easier as it's just part of my current course, and China seems to know well enough what this qualification is all about. Foot in the Chinese door is all I'm after really.

 

Those are my current midnight rambling thoughts anyway. Might be useful for anyone else wondering about UK postgrad stuff on their own quest to enter the middle kingdom.