在未 。。。之前

[Tulee]

 Hi guys,

 

I have come across the structure 在未 。。。之前 a number of times, and i always have a hard time grasping the concept since i do not understand the reason for 未 in the sentence at all.

 

E.g: 在未判罪之前假定无罪

 

Since it is basically saying before being found guilty (a person) is assumed innocent.

 

Any feed back would be much appreciated!

[Publius]

Um I don't know. Maybe it will make more sense If you rephrase it as "presumed innocent until proven guilty"? 'Until' has a negative prefix in it right?

 

[Daniel Tsui44]

I'd say it's a wrong sentence. Maybe there are many people use it,but you'd better don't.

You can use:

未…时

…之前

[lips]

There's nothing wrong with it.  It's commonly used like the double negative in English. (ain't goin' nowhere)

[thinkpanda]

在判罪之前

在未判罪之前

 

both correct

 

they mean the same thing 

 

 

just like the yanks say "i dunno nothing..."

 

LOL

[thinkpanda]

another example ：

 

中国乒乓球谁也赢不了

中国足球谁也赢不了

 

both correct

 

LMAO

[Kenny同志]

Quote

E.g: 在未判罪之前假定无罪

 

This is a common mistake. You either say 在未判罪時 or 在判罪之前.

 

在……之前 is often logically wrong. In this case, it is perfectly right to say that a suspect should be assumed to be innocent before/until he is convicted. If you insert 'not' between 'he is' and 'convicted', I don't see how it continues to make sense.

[lips]

For this particular sentence, if used in a legal/official document, yes, remove the double negative, but in other situations, it is perfectly normal.  It is logically wrong, but languages are not always logical.

[Publius]

I think it's good in all circumstances.

This article is pretty formal, you can find many instances of it: http://www.iolaw.org.cn/showarticle.asp?id=190

And in 联合国《公民权利和政治权利国际公约》http://www.un.org/chinese/hr/issue/ccpr.htm 第三部分、第十四条

二、凡受刑事控告者，在未依法证实有罪之前，应有权被视为无罪。

在……之前 just doesn't carry the same authority and the sense of inhibition, because it implies ... will happen.

在我没来之前，谁也不许动。<=== This implies everybody must wait, FOREVER if necessary, for me. Change it to

在我来之前，谁也不许动。 It will lose that meaning.

 

 

[Kenny同志]

Just because it is a common mistake does not mean it should be accepted as correct--even if you cite what seems to be authoritative materials. Anyway, it is hugely confusing. 

 

I can name a similar common mistake and cite seemingly trustworthy sources. But again, that does not justify that mistake.

 

Example：若/如果……時

Quote

請民眾勿以身試法，若發現有不肖人士企圖加價出售車票時，請立刻撥打檢舉專線：0800-765-888。

http://railway.hinet.net/

交通部台灣鐵路管理局

 

In this case, 時 should be removed. I have seen this collocation even in medical textbooks but that does not make it correct.

 

 

[Publius]

Just because you said it's a mistake, doesn't make it a mistake.

Language is build on consensus and usage.

I agree 时 should be removed from the sentence your quoted.

That doesn't mean I must agree 未 should be removed from 在未判罪之前.

The linguistic justification I've already stated.

 

[Daniel Tsui44]

2 hours ago, Kenny同志 said:

Just because it is a common mistake does not mean it should be accepted as correct--even if you cite what seems to be authoritative materials. Anyway, it is hugely confusing.

 

 

 

在未……之前 is obviously wrong but not to be said to be a special use or fixed structure anywhere. It's not like "差点没吓死我",  "好不快活", which are being generally accepted.

It's more like "凯旋而归" is wrong but widely used. Those sentences have a common label called "重复/赘余".

[Publius]

Does it make it more correct if I say XXX is obviously correct?

OK, 在未……之前 is obviously correct.

[Daniel Tsui44]

If you say so.

[Kenny同志]

Quote

Language is build on consensus and usage.

This is true. And I agree with you that just because I say it is a mistake does not mean it is really one.

 

The problem is that we are not in agreement about all this. That is to say, while many people have no problem with 在未……之前, I am sure there are a significant number of people who do not accept it.

 

I will stop here.

 

[lips]

Must be encouraging to the Chinese learners when the natives are arguing about a common usage pattern.

[Publius]

22 minutes ago, lips said:

Must be encouraging to the Chinese learners when the natives are arguing about a common usage pattern.

You smirking laowai! 

English has its own problems. Hopefully? Momentarily? Literally? Off of? Sort it out please, lol

[lips]

believe you me, you ain't see nutting yet

[roddy]

There's a vanishing small number of instances of  在未判罪之前 in the wild. It's probably not worth worrying about.

[Lu]

Even if it's incorrect and shouldn't be used, it's useful for a learner to know what it means, because it's common enough that one will come across it. Just like 'I could care less': it's wrong, but you need to understand it means the same as 'couldn't care less'.