Ordinal vs. Cardinal Numbers

[NelsonK]

Hi all,

 

I was taught that to express an ordinal number (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.) rather than a cardinal number (1, 2, 3, etc.) in Chinese it was necessary to put something like "第" in front of the number character (i.e. "第一" means "1st", "一" on its own can never mean "1st").

 

But I've been coming across some examples in my reading that confuse me.  Here's one:

 

A military commander issues the following order to his troops "一中隊派崗哨警戒。其餘的原地休息。"

 

Now, because I don't see "第", I assume "一中隊" means "one detachment" (i.e. one of several) or "whole detachment" (i.e. everybody), rather than "first detachment" or "detachment no. 1".

 

But a published English translation of these sentences (from 紅高粱家族 by 莫言) reads "Squad One up to the hill for sentry duty! The rest of you can take a break."

 

Is the translator correct here? His translation seems to make more sense than mine. If "一中隊" meant "the whole detachment", there would be no "其餘的" left to give the second part of the order to. If "一中隊" meant "just one detachment of the several that are here", how could the troops know which detachment the commander means? Are they supposed to choose amongst themselves? That doesn't sound like the kind of military protocol I've heard about.

 

The broader question is: are there times when "一" on its own can still mean "1st" or "no. 1"? And, by extension, can all Chinese numbers be ordinal as well as cardinal even without "第"?

 

Thanks very much.

[edelweis]

uh

[Publius]

The English translation is correct. This 一中隊 means "Squad One".

I don't know the exact definition of ordinal, but I think Number One counts as a form of ordinal.

This affects the reading of 一. If 一 is ordinal it's "yi1 zhong1dui4", but if it's cardinal it's "yi4 zhong1dui4". Yeah, a bit confusing.

Like someone commented, "Now it seems Chinese is a bit like quantum physics, when they tell you: sorry, we actually lied to you before, but what you learned before applies pretty accurately most of the time."

And I think all languages are like that. There's rules and there's exceptions. And there's exceptions to exceptions. A learner has to learn them all eventually, from the most general to the most exceptional. And finally when no rule applies they simply tell you it's idiomatic.

 

EDIT: This is a bit off topic. I was playing this mobile game with a bunch of Americans. There is this arena where you fight everyday against other players and receive reward according to your ranking. What amuses me is how we view the ranking differently. They say "under 10" when what they really mean is "in the top 10", which I believe should be "above 10". I had a good debate with them lol.

 

EDIT: I got cardinal and ordinal all wrong lol, edited.

[NelsonK]

Thanks both to edelweis and Publius!  Definitely helped clear things up.

[889]

Most common example of this I see is 八路军. Note the Wikipedia entry starts  "八路军全称國民革命軍第八路军."

[LinZhenPu]

Note that the English translation says Squad One, not First Squad - think about that.

[889]

But change "Squad" to "Squadron" and you'll find yourself back at First base.

 

A Google search "ordinal numbers military units" will bring up several discussions on other boards.

 

 

 

 

 

[Daniel Tsui44]

On 2017/2/19 at 5:02 AM, NelsonK said:

一中隊

It can mean the "Squad one" or "a squad", the one make more sense is the right translation.

When the order is fixed, the ordinal number is usually used as parts of the name.

Example:

the third child of a king and it is a girl. then the princess is called "三公主".

三公主打牌，一公主赢，二公主输，三公主不赢不输。

Three princesses play cards, the first one(most older one) win, the second one(second older one) loss, the third one break even.

三公主打牌，一公主赢，两公主输。

Three princesses play cards, one prince wins, two prince loss.

三公主考试，三公主第一,二公主第二，一公主第三。