Get it right or get going?

[Flickserve]

When learning, do you want to get a word right perfect pronunciation all the time? It would take time.

 

Or do you want to get it accurate to a point where you can use it, a native speaker can understand and then fine tune later?

 

 

[jgraham11]

As someone who has probably 80% of my tones correct in my vocab arsenal and the other 20% so-so, I'd say try to get it right. When I first started learning I had the same idea that I could always come back later to fine tune and maybe that can work. But if I could start over again I'd make sure to get every tone right for every word. Just my opinion

[Flickserve]

32 minutes ago, jgraham11 said:

But if I could start over again I'd make sure to get every tone right for every word

 

 

I tried that but didn't make much progress and it was quite frustrating and demoralising.

[jgraham11]

Yeah I'm sure it would be, just the thought of it is kind of tiring haha. Depends on how "good" you want to be. I mean you can say a whole sentence and maybe one word has a bad tone, but if the person you're speaking to is a native then it shouldn't really be a problem. Most native mandarin speakers I know understand the need to keep their ear out for misplaced tones when speaking to a foreigner. It's something to work on if you can, but I wouldn't stress over it too much

[imron]

If you have internalised the tones, and internalised correct pinyin pronunciation you should always be able to get it right without any extra effort.

 

Imagine for example someone learning English and learning a word without having correctly internalised important parts of pronunciation e.g. take a word such as 'other' and remembering it as 'osser' or 'think' as 'sink'.

 

The problem is not that they are learning the incorrect pronunciation, it's that they have internalised the incorrect pronunciation so to them that's how they think it's supposed to be pronounced.

 

If you find you are having trouble remembering the correct pronunciation, then it's probably worth your while to spend some time improving and internalising the correct pronunciation for your problem areas.

[roddy]

I'd agree. I think early on it's entirely acceptable to say 'ok, that's as close as I can get it for now' and come back to it later*, but at a certain point the pronunciation of new words shouldn't be a major issue.

 

*Not in a sloppy 'good enough for Mr Foreigner' way, but as a part of a conscientious reiterative process.

[abcdefg]

>>" Or do you want to get it accurate to a point where you can use it, a native speaker can understand and then fine tune later?"

 

For me the acid test is whether I can be understood in conversation with native speakers. If one of my tones is off, often I find that they repeat the word back to me correctly pronounced. That instant feedback helps set me straight; it helps the fine tuning process proceed naturally.

 

What has made me a bit more relaxed about this whole issue now than I was 6 or 8 years ago is that many of the Chinese people I talk with here day to day speak pretty awful Mandarin. If someone has to say "What?" or ask for a clarification or repeat of something I say, it's not the end of the world. The same thing happens when native speakers are conversing with each other all the time.

[Flickserve]

9 hours ago, imron said:

If you have internalised the tones, and internalised correct pinyin pronunciation you should always be able to get it right without any extra effort.

 

I think there was a recommendation to practice tone pairs. In fact, I did try this before but it was quite hard just to learn words.

 

You see, if I did try to get it right all the time, progress would be slow. In fact, after nearly two years, I still couldn't hold a five minute conversation without stammering half the time.

 

Looking back, the search for perfection may have been a hinderance. I can speak better now after doing a lot more repetitive listening and much less realtime talk time. Some of the infrequent language partners have been really surprised at the difference. Albeit, the caveat is that I speak with a strong Cantonese accent and Cantonese tones come in. This mainly happens with unfamiliar words which I know in Cantonese, don't know in Mandarin, and then I have a go. Funnily enough, I still sound Chinese - a southern Chinese. At least I have a feeling of progress whereas before, I nearly gave up.

 

There has to be some balance between the two, right?

[Publius]

It's okay you have an accent. Nobody speaks perfect Mandarin, except perhaps newsreaders and even they won't speak that way in private.

Cantonese accent is better than a foreign accent. Cheer up!

[imron]

1 hour ago, Flickserve said:

In fact, I did try this before but it was quite hard just to learn words.

Do you treat each character as pronunciation plus a tone, or do you treat tone as part of the pronunciation?

 

e.g. do you go ma + 1 = mā, ma + 2 = má, or have you internalised mā and má as being as distinct as 'ma' and 'na'?

 

Often a stumbling block with tones is treating them as syllable + tone, rather than the tone being an integral, inseparable part of the sound.

 

Even if you have practiced tone pair drills, if you see each sound as syllable + tone and you're trying to apply a tone on the fly to a base sound then it will cause stuttering because part of your attention is taken up by tones instead of on what you want to say.

 

If you've internalised each different tone as a distinct sound, then you don't run in to the same issue (any more than you run in to an issue with using n instead of m or j instead of q).

 

 

[Publius]

Of course ideally, you just know the tone of each character. But even if you don't, there's still some guidelines that can help you make an educated guess.

I'm assuming you're a fluent Cantonese speaker. And you know the Mandarin tones 媽麻馬罵 are called 陰平、陽平、上聲、去聲, right?

The Cantonese tones 三九四零五二（七八六）have their names too. And it's easier to map Cantonese tones to Mandarin tones than the other way around.

三 saam1 陰平 => 陰平 sān

九 gau2 陰上 => 上聲 jiǔ

四 sei3 陰去 => 去聲 sì

零 ling4 陽平 => 陽平 líng

五 ng5 陽上 => 上聲 wǔ

二 ji6 陽去 => 去聲 èr

This part is quite straightforward. (But don't try to use colloquial readings or 白讀 like 上 soeng5, 重 cung5, etc. They only exist in Cantonese.)

The distribution of 入聲 (syllables ending in -p, -t, -k) in Mandarin is pretty random. But there may still be one or two helpful rules (with many exceptions).

If a character is 入聲 in Cantonese and its 聲母 is b, d, g, j, zh, z in Mandarin, it's relatively safe to assume it's 陽平. For example, 博 bó, 德 dé, 國 guó.

If a character is 入聲 in Cantonese and its 聖母 is m, n, l, r, y, w in Mandarin, the safest bet is 去聲. For example, 莫 mò, 落 luò, 日 rì.

The others are totally random. Wish you good luck.

 

[calibre2001]

4 hours ago, Flickserve said:

 

I think there was a recommendation to practice tone pairs. In fact, I did try this before but it was quite hard just to learn words

 

Do you mean learn new vocabulary from tone pair drills?

[Flickserve]

5 hours ago, calibre2001 said:

Do you mean learn new vocabulary from tone pair drills?

 

Learn words that I came across in sentences and subsequently use them in sentences. Through Skype lessons, tutors would just type individual words.

 

In the end, I gave up on learning new words that way. I just learn a sentence in parrot fashion and try to make my own sentences later. Then, using the teacher, I can feel a wrong tone and ask them the correct word. Repeat. Forget, try again. Listen to recording. Mimic. Have cantonese creep in (it is not on purpose). Recorrect.

 

 

6 hours ago, Publius said:

make an educated guess.

 Yeah. That how it works and I seem to be doing better than some of my hk colleagues trying to speak mandarin.

[lips]

6 hours ago, Publius said:

colloquial readings or 白讀 like 上 soeng5, 重 cung5

These are not 白讀 in Cantonese.  

[Flickserve]

6 hours ago, Publius said:

The Cantonese tones 三九四零五二（七八六）have their names too. And it's easier to map Cantonese tones to Mandarin tones than the other way around

 Yes. Fluent but not truly in a way a second language learner usually learns tones. I just copied what people said and learnt that way. (immersion technique). Usually Cantonese speakers are very surprised that my pronunciation is quite accurate, albeit with the odd mistake that gives me away as a non-native speaker. Not bad for a person who started learning as an adult.

 

So I don't really have the theoretical knowledge on Cantonese tones. I just speak out the sentence ...

[Flickserve]

8 hours ago, imron said:

Do you treat each character as pronunciation plus a tone, or do you treat tone as part of the pronunciation?

 

The second. Then if I am not sure of a pronunciation or tone, perhaps it sounds a bit off, I whip out pleco and recheck.

[Publius]

2 hours ago, Flickserve said:

So I don't really have the theoretical knowledge on Cantonese tones. I just speak out the sentence ...

Native speakers don't know the technical details of their language too. I'm just suggesting there's some tricks when you have to guess. For example if it's rising in Cantonese then it's the 3rd tone in Mandarin; if it's flat at a lower range then it's falling (4th tone) in Mandarin; high level remains high level (1st tone); the lowest, creaky sound is 2nd tone in Mandarin.

 

2 hours ago, lips said:

These are not 白讀 in Cantonese.

Yes they are. The Classical Chinese-derived reading is 上 soeng6 and 重 zung6 respectively.

[lips]

3 minutes ago, Publius said:

3 hours ago, lips said:

These are not 白讀 in Cantonese.

Yes they are. The Classical Chinese-derived reading is 上 soeng6 and 重 zung6 respectively.

So when reading a written passage in Cantonese (文讀), one should pronounce 上山 as soeng6 saan1 and 重創 as  zung6 cong1?  

 

[陳德聰]

Hm... Are striving to get the pronunciation correct 100% of the time and actually getting the pronunciation correct 100% the same thing though?

 

Because from what I understand, you can strive to get the pronunciation perfect for the first couple of years and still have a very foreign-sounding accent during that time despite your efforts.

 

I think it's more important to be constantly aware of what the correct pronunciation is so that you can hear that you are producing it incorrectly, but it is not important to always be producing it correctly. I believe that will naturally just emerge over time if you are constantly noticing and trying to correct in your head.

 

As long as you can produce all the sounds you need to produce at will, if they are not coming out right in real-time conversations, it's likely more because you have not had enough trial and error yet.

[Publius]

@lips yes and no. yes when you are reciting a poem, but not necessarily when reading any written passage.