To: Chinese learner-----a quiz

[eddiewouldgo]

But not all who can read "Romeo and Juliet" can claim to have native fluency, of course. Reading Shakespeare is a somewhat specialized skill.

That's the exact point I'm trying to make.

If i can understand that short chinese passage, am I at a native chinese high schooler's level??

汝乃国人否？尔何出此言?

是否国人才可以出言？？ 何谓国人？ 国人一定知情？不是国人就不知情？未必太井底之蛙。

ggonline君请稍安也。愚以为eddiewouldgo君久居檀香山，恐其未识中华之实况，神州之风采，故有异议，不足为怪。待其亲涉华夏，便知端详矣。

妄下定论，论坛之大忌，don't assume!!

ggonline君既以国人自居，想必大有君子之风矣

以国人自居想必是君子，what kind of logic is that?

君子有广阔胸怀，接受别人意见.

[fenlan]

汝乃国人否？尔何出此言?

"Are you Chinese ? Why did you say that?"

[fenlan]

Actually the passage from Canterbury Tales linked to above was one of the easier passages. I think the prologue is harder (see http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/CT-prolog-para.html) . However the real difference is that Chinese students still learn some classical Chinese, whereas the study of Middle English is a specialist discipline. High school students most certainly are not exposed to a single word of Middle English - that is reserved for English majors in English universities. As for Shakespeare - this used to be de rigueur, but has now been dropped by many schools. Someone in my office has a PhD, but never read a single word of Shakespeare at school. If you believe the newspapers, English language degrees at the university level are now examining the language used on bus tickets instead of the classics - I don't think they do that in China! But without a government decisiont to teach classical Chinese in schools, Chinese people who left school at 16 would be unable to read classical Chinese any more than we can - most cannot read much anyway. Classical Chinese is a different language to Modern Standard Chinese, and is not in fact the direct ancestor of Mandarin. Modern Mandarin derived through some kind of Mongolian/Manchu contacts and replaced the former Zhongzhou standard of Chinese.

[gato]

西廂記 You want to read it in Chinese or English?

I can probably read it in the original with the help of a dictionary. Its language seems to be closer to modern Chinese than, say, the Analects. I finished the "Language of Dragon" classical Chinese texts by Gregory Chiang, but still couldn't tackle the Analects without translation. I heard from a specialist that it uses more local vernacular and thus is more difficult than other Confucian texts, e.g., that of Mencius.

And I just remembered, the modern play that I saw was 牡丹亭, not Xi Xiang Ji. But back to the point, modern Chinese audiences still watch performances of premodern plays, but they often have to use subtitles. But I'm not sure if plays are by defintion performed in the vernacular, as opposed to 文言文.

They probably were in quasi-vernacular if they were commercial plays. I would think that even fewer people knew 文言文 back then than now because much, much fewer people knew how to read at all.

The Chinese written language departed from the spoken language more than 2000 years ago, before even Confucius. English seems to have always followed the vernacular pretty closely. Could that be true for phonetic languages generally? Schools used to teach English the vernacular, along with Latin and Greek. I've heard that most common people of Shakespeare's time could understand his plays. Most educated people today shouldn't have too much trouble with Shakespeare, either, because much of his vocabulary has been retained in the English we use today. If one can read Dickens, one should be able to read Shakespeare. The most difficult area would be the slangs he used like "carry coal" and "collar."

[ggonline]

An example of high school textbook:

劝　　学

作者：荀况

君子曰：学不可以已。青，取之于蓝而青于蓝；冰，水为之而寒于水。本直中绳，輮以为轮，其曲中规；虽有槁暴，不复挺者，輮使之然也。故木受绳则直，金就砺则利，君子博学而日参省乎己，则知明而行无过矣。

故不登高山，不知天之高也；不临深谿，不知地之厚也；不闻先王之遗言，不知学问之大也。干越夷貉之子，生而同声，长而异俗，教使之然也。《诗》曰：“嗟尔君子，无恒安息。靖共尔位，好是正直。神之听之，介尔景福。”神莫大于化道，福莫长于无祸

[studentyoung]

That's the exact point I'm trying to make.

If i can understand that short chinese passage' date=' am I at a native chinese high schooler's level??[/quote']

我明白你的意思，eddiewouldgo君——不过是否大家都可以心平气和一点呢？

Quote:

汝乃国人否？尔何出此言?

是否国人才可以出言？？ 何谓国人？ 国人一定知情？不是国人就不知情？未必太井底之蛙。

当然不是只有国人才可以出言。但人家ggonline是觉得奇怪你为什么那样说。当然国人也有不知情的时候，不是国人的也有可能在某些问题上比国人知道得更多。至于你问什么才叫“国人”，我想你都有自己的答案了，我也就不多费口舌了。

Quote:

ggonline君请稍安也。愚以为eddiewouldgo君久居檀香山，恐其未识中华之实况，神州之风采，故有异议，不足为怪。待其亲涉华夏，便知端详矣。

妄下定论，论坛之大忌，don't assume!!

你说得很对！不过，你还记得下面这句话吗？

I dont think that's a good measurement, because that's 文言文，classical Chinese, a lot of chinese people themself wont understand it.

如果你认为你用“I don't think...”去表达你自己的观点不算是妄下定论的话，我想我用“愚以为……”去表达我自己的观点应该不算“妄下定论”了吧？

Quote:

ggonline君既以国人自居，想必大有君子之风矣

以国人自居想必是君子，what kind of logic is that?

君子有广阔胸怀，接受别人意见

我可没说以国人自居的家伙就是君子，只是婉转地表达我希望ggonline君能有君子之风，即能“人不知而不愠”，因为可能是你对我们这边文言文的水平状况不了解，所以你的观点与事实稍有出入。（注：这里我是说“可能”，并没给你下任何定论喔！）你说不是吗？

不过，如果你还是要断章取义的话，我想我就是长十张嘴也难说清楚哇！

[ggonline]

其实studentyoung写的短篇古文，意思再明白不过了，略有几分调侃而已，怎么有些人就看不懂呢?

我之所以在楼上贴了一篇中学古文<劝学>，就是想让某些人能够知趣，让某些人知道我国中学生的古文水平倒底如何。另一方面也想"劝学"某些人。

[ggonline]

其实，我贴那个"某人一生"的半文言文，只想博国人一笑，唬唬老外罢了。

没成想，还真有些人不解风情，较上劲了，有违初衷啊。

[chenpv]

居然有这么无聊的人，居然也有这么多热心的人。---------- 无语啊。

话说回来，还是版主失职，没有发挥宏观调控的功能。

[eddiewouldgo]

我明白你的意思，eddiewouldgo君——不过是否大家都可以心平气和一点呢？

I'm very calm myself, and I dont know what's the commotion. I only said it was not a good meaturement, and then I was asked "Are you chinese, why did you say that?"

当然不是只有国人才可以出言。但人家ggonline是觉得奇怪你为什么那样说。当然国人也有不知情的时候，不是国人的也有可能在某些问题上比国人知道得更多。至于你问什么才叫“国人”，我想你都有自己的答案了，我也就不多费口舌了。

奇怪我为什么那样说? 爲什麽奇怪？我覺得不同意他的定論， 所以我就說了.

我當然有我國人的定義，但我不知道ggonline所謂國人的定義。是不是身不在中國就不是國人？

ggonline君请稍安也。愚以为eddiewouldgo君久居檀香山，恐其未识中华之实况，神州之风采，故有异议，不足为怪。待其亲涉华夏，便知端详矣。

妄下定论，论坛之大忌，don't assume!!

你说得很对！不过，你还记得下面这句话吗？

Quote:

I dont think that's a good measurement, because that's 文言文，classical Chinese, a lot of chinese people themself wont understand it.

如果你认为你用“I don't think...”去表达你自己的观点不算是妄下定论的话，我想我用“愚以为……”去表达我自己的观点应该不算“妄下定论”了吧？

你的妄下定论是以我的住處而判斷我對一件事情的了解程度。 而我只是對事，對ggonline下的定論發表不同意。And that's the difference between you and I.

我可没说以国人自居的家伙就是君子，只是婉转地表达我希望ggonline君能有君子之风，即能“人不知而不愠”，因为可能是你对我们这边文言文的水平状况不了解，所以你的观点与事实稍有出入。（注：这里我是说“可能”，并没给你下任何定论喔！）你说不是吗？

不过，如果你还是要断章取义的话，我想我就是长十张嘴也难说清楚哇[/Quote]

你現才在說可能，it's after the fact already. 你應該早說， eddiewouldgo君， 你何出此言？ 可否賜教。 就不要加你是囯人否？ 英雄何必問出處

[eddiewouldgo]

其实，我贴那个"某人一生"的半文言文，只想博国人一笑，唬唬老外罢了。

没成想，还真有些人不解风情，较上劲了，有违初衷啊。

如果是説笑就說清楚一點。不要妄下這樣的定論：

I assure you that every Chinese having high school diploma will definitely understand it! and I wish you have fun

只想博国人一笑，唬唬老外罢了，這樣的態度不要的。 There are a lot of people are seriously trying to learn Chinese here, put yourself in their shoes. This is a forum meant for people all over the world to understand more about Chinese cultures, you have an international audience in this forums, no matter what your post was origianlly intended to.

[roddy]

Boring. ggonline is already in pre-moderation because he was annoying people, and the topic was quite happily forgotten until someone decided to tell me I'd 失职ed. Continue by email if you want.