Sinocentrism - To what extent should it be challenged?

[LiMo]

Not sure I follow your last comment. Overall I wouldn't say anyone likes rice. I would just say Chinese people tend to eat a lot of rice, or rice is one of the staple foods in China. It's a small difference but I think it's slightly better and creates less of a caricature. It removes the slightly silly implication, real or imagined, that Chinese people eat more rice than Europeans because they like it more, as opposed to historical and climatic factors.

 

Again, I'm not pretending that I never make generalisations or that one should never do so, it's just that some generalisations are better than others, IMHO.

[歐博思]

Lol thank god for the phrase 就我來説.

 

4 hours ago, LiMo said:

to what extent does 外国人 include non-whites?

I'm very tempted to ask this on 知乎.

[Guest realmayo]

1 hour ago, LiMo said:

's a small difference but I think it's slightly better and creates less of a caricature. It removes the slightly silly implication, real or imagined, that Chinese people eat more rice than Europeans because they like it more, as opposed to historical and climatic factors.

 

Okay, well if those kind of things are important to you I'm not going to argue -- when I'm prattling away in Chinese on these kinds of topics I'm rarely at pains to avoid silly implications, I guess because I assume the person I'm talking to isn't silly.

[LiMo]

That's fair. Obviously this is one particular example and it really depends on what sort of topic you're on. As far as rice goes I agree it's a bit frivolous but there are plenty of other more serious topics where more caution is warranted and I think it does no harm to practise on the small stuff, to keep my eye in so to speak, so that when the time comes I don't end up spreading falsehoods or misinformation because I assumed that my listeners understood what I was saying.

 

Life is often like a game of "Chinese whispers," the very un-PC British name of what I think North Americans call "telephone," while your listener may not be silly, she may repeat what you've said to someone who is, and so on and so forth. There's enough miscommunication among co-nationals let alone cross culturally, I just like to err on the side of caution.

 

@歐博思 

If you do, please link us to the results or just summarise the findings, I'd be very interested to see what Chinese people make of it.

[NinKenDo]

Yeah, I really don't think we need to bring Burkina Faso into things to make generalisations about waiguoren an issue guys. Like I said in literally the post that you quoted, Northern Italians and Southern Italians have pretty different cultures and have trouble identifying with each other. It's also a perfect example of how foolish the 'waiguoren don't eat rice' generalisations is given the reasonable prominence of rice in Italian cooking.

 

So no, I think you're purposefully playing down the validity of my point there by bringing in something like Burkina Faso given my post was about how even if we limit 'waiguoren' to mean just Westerners we still run into issues.

[imron]

This thread appears to be asking whether cultural imperialism is better than sinocentrism.

 

 

[NinKenDo]

Quote

This thread appears to be asking whether cultural imperialism is better than sinocentrism.

 

Care to elaborate?

[imron]

From the op:

 

Quote

Do you think it is best to just 入乡随俗 and accept it for the sake of getting along with people? Or do you think we have a responsibility to encourage the development of a more international outlook within China?

 

Which is basically asking should China be allowed to determine their view of themselves and others (which is currently and historically sinocentrist), or should we impose our own outlook of what is and isn't acceptable upon them instead (in other words cultural imperialism).

[Matthewkell]

2 hours ago, imron said:

 

Which is basically asking should China be allowed to determine their view of themselves and others (which is currently and historically sinocentrist), or should we impose our own outlook of what is and isn't acceptable upon them instead (in other words cultural imperialism).

The western PC sensitivity to ethnocentrism and so on is not a traditional part of western culture, but a response to western societies becoming multi-cultural and multi-racial etc. Whether you think it is an appropriate response or not is a different matter entirely, but I doubt Western societies would have evolved PCism if there weren't high levels of ethnic and cultural diversity to respond to - although I think that this is probably also contingent on a high degree of confidence in "western" power generally. China is much more "closed" and homogeneous ethnically and culturally, but nevertheless, it is increasingly interacting with the rest of the world, and asserting itself more and more. I don't think we are obliged to respect China's view of the world with itself as the center, especially if that worldview may well be behind a lot of concerning foreign policy behaviour - some fairly uncontroversial examples would be China throwing hissy fits about any perceived threat to its territorial integrity but not even paying lip service to respecting the border with India, or launching into blood curdling tirades against South Korea accepting the missile defense placements without really considering why South Korea might be nervous about North Korean saber rattling, or how China's actions may have contributed to the situation. I make fun of Americans for having a "World Series" that only includes North American teams, and I don't think China should be above criticism simply for being more of a cultural "other" than the US. My point is that, I'm not convinced that a strongly ethnocentric worldview should be above criticism, especially from an increasingly assertive world power. Would, for example, African employees of a Chinese firm striking or protesting about perceived cultural arrogance (a hypothetical, but not unimaginable scenario) be an example of China being a victim of western PC cultural imperialism, or simply a case of China being held accountable outside of its own strictly harmonised "safe space", as it were? 

 

I don't know if my view is too Western-centric here, but, it could be argued that it is the PC multi-culturalism of the liberal democratic west which keeps our worst "imperialist" tendencies in check. (e.g. protests against the Iraq war, Vietnam war etc in the US, and the British Empire's peaceful process of decolonisation probably wouldn't have happened if the government elected in 1945 wasn't a socialist government with anti-imperialist tendencies. Churchill, for instance, would most certainly not have let India go without a fight, and the following Conservative government undertook a shambolic effort to maintain control over Egypt) This is largely a product of our own history of imperialism which we have had to reflect on and face up to in a way that China has never really had to do, and it is also partly a result of people listening to the voices of people who are on the other side. Just because China has not had this history in the same way does not mean, I think, that we should give it a completely free pass and take an indulgent attitude towards sinocentrism just because that is how China has always viewed the world. Like it or not, China is not the center of the world, which in the modern globalised world is something it has to face up to in a way it didn't have to for most of its history.

To look at things from another point of view, I think that there is quite an interesting discussion to be had about universal values 普世价值。I find it interesting that this is something that China views as a threat and as a defining feature of the west, but it is not something most westerners are particularly conscious about as being part of their ideology. Nevertheless, "universalism" is indeed something rooted in Enlightenment thought (and is probably more associated with the left than the right) and also in Christian monotheistic universalism. An alternative viewpoint to the one I expressed above is that this kind of belief in "universalism" is deeply rooted in western culture and rather than being a check on the west like I said above is in fact the cause of West's imperialist and missionary tendencies as opposed to just minding its own business. (edit to add: and I suppose it can be both simultaneously in a kind of unity of opposites way) I'm open to this point of view as well, I think there's a lot of discussion we could get out of the relation between western culture, 普世价值，imperialism, and (a broadly defined) liberalism. 

[lips]

Matthew 10:14

[Matthewkell]

16 minutes ago, lips said:

Matthew 10:14

Galatians 3:28

[陳德聰]

So I think... and this is just me... but I really only care that the people I share my life with don't say things to me often that make me feel they don't value me as an individual.

 

So getting on my friends' case or politely explaining why I don't like the way they use the word, to me at least, is a worthy pursuit. Now, every time someone calls me a 老外 in the country of my birth, I get to share a knowing look with my boyfriend that says "we both know how you feel about that and neither of us are probably going to make a big deal out of it".

 

Occasionally, for people who are not worth the frustration, such as those who make particularly ignorant generalisations, I am willing to tease them about it by playing dumb and asking what they mean by 外國人. Like wait are you really asking me why 6 billion people don't wear slippers in their own homes? Lil' old me? No of course not that would be preposterous. But it can be entertaining, if the goal is not to end up with the other person "getting it", cause let's face it some people just can't or won't.

[Lu]

1 hour ago, Matthewkell said:

China is much more "closed" and homogeneous ethnically and culturally

On the one hand, sure, but on the other hand: 55 minorities and huge differences between North, South, and the various provinces. One could say that China does the same as the west: imposing universal-Chinese values to everybody equally (speak Putonghua! love the flag!), while many people have all kinds of prejudices and generalisations (minorities just love to dance, Henanese are crooks). If Chinese minorities could make themselves heard like ethnic minorities in Western countries can, China might become a more PC place.

[imron]

1 hour ago, Matthewkell said:

it could be argued that it is the PC multi-culturalism of the liberal democratic west which keeps our worst "imperialist" tendencies in check

 

You could also argue that it's exactly the opposite and that the nature of PC is that it has a view of what is and isn't acceptable and tries to impose that view of the world on all others, usually under the guise of morality, the greater good and to prevent people from being offended.

 

It's that belief about one's own rightness and morality that plays a large part in imperialist tendencies.

 

 

[Matthewkell]

5 minutes ago, imron said:

2 hours ago, Matthewkell said:

 

 

You could also argue that it's exactly the opposite and that the nature of PC is that it has a view of what is and isn't acceptable and tries to impose that view of the world on all others, usually under the guise of morality, the greater good and to prevent people from being offended.

Finish reading my post before you reply, I made that exact point in my third paragraph.

[imron]

Don't assume that people who disagree with you weren't listening to what you were saying. 

[Matthewkell]

7 minutes ago, imron said:

Don't assume that people who disagree with you weren't listening to what you were saying. 

 

How is your point different to the one I made in my third paragraph, then? 

Edit to add: And for that matter, you weren't disagreeing with me as such, because I put forward two opposing arguments, neither of which I was fully convinced of myself. (hence the "it could be argued..." style of phrasing)

[Publius]

I find this kind of discussion fruitless, to put it mildly.

It also reminds me that I'm spending too much time on this forum while I really should be reading Japanese novels :/

[Matthewkell]

1 minute ago, Publius said:

 

I find this kind of discussion fruitless, to put it mildly.

It also reminds me that I'm spending too much time on this forum while I really should be reading Japanese novels :/

 

I find it interesting, (obviously, otherwise I wouldn't have started the topic) but it is also reminding me of how badly I am procrastinating from writing my dissertation. 

[Guest realmayo]

I think the question of when and why one speaks up is interesting. If a Chinese taxi driver says something blatantly racist to me about African students for instance, I'll feel bad if I don't at least mumble some kind of disagreement, because for some reason I'd feel maybe I were somehow acquiescing in his view if I don't say anything. But deep down I don't think this automatic impulse is because I want to educate the guy or anything. It's just to stop me feeling bad.

 

However: if he says something rude about, say, the French, I wouldn't feel guilty for letting it pass because where i'm from the French haven't consituted a disadvantaged group. But basically, I'm a product of my society and people of my age in my society generally feel morally bad on hearing anti-黑人 comments.

 

The difference between me and the OP and some others commenting here is that they also seem to feel a similar moral badness -- and therefore a compulsion to speak up -- on broader matters of diversity/generalisation. I think that reflects a newish trend in some western countries, and while I don't think it's influenced me (or not yet), clearly it has lots of (often younger) people. I can't help an alarm going off in my head I hear something anti-黑人. But that alarm doesn't trigger automatically if I hear someone lumping together the citizens of, say, Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands.