Regional differences in Mandarin prononciation

[bhchao]

is it considered standard in Taiwan? Is it the pronunciation taught at school, used in the media - TV and radio?

Sorry for the delay. I don't watch Taiwan TV often (my relatives do), but it seems that the Taiwan news broadcasts are spoken in the correct pronunciation. Informal Taiwanese television shows (for example guest speakers or entertainment hosts) are the ones more likely to use 'si' instead of 'shi'. I have watched a few of those shows and heard entertainers use 'si' rather than 'shi.'

Also when you hear songs from Taiwan, the singers pronounce 是 in a soft 'shi' sound. It doesn't come close to being the extreme 'shhhhi' sound you hear often in the Beijing format. Instead the pronunciation falls somewhere between 'shi' and 'si'. Sometimes you can hardly tell the difference at all.

[gato]

There is not really one standard Mandarin accent in Taiwan. Instead there are many different Mandarin accents spoken in Taiwan, particularly among so-called non-Taiwanese (Waishengren). I heard some talk show host on the radio in Taipei speaking in a Beijing-like accent. I thought at first that he was a mainland exile. It turned out that he was born to KMT military parents from northern China and grew up on a military base in Taiwan, I think surrounded by northern Chinese. I also ran across some seven, eight-year-olds in a cafe in Taipei who spoke very standard Putonghua, bordering on a Beijing accent. They are definitely in the minority, though.

[fenlan]

c>ch

ch>c

s>sh

sh>s

z>zh

zh>z

n>l

h>f

n>ng

ng>n

r>y

y>r

These are common differences in pronunciation. First the z, c, s, are often replaced by zh, ch, sh and vice versa. (But I think pronouncing ch as c is more common that pronouncing c as ch). Many southerners can't pronounce n propertly, eg lan instead of nan. Many substitute f for h, eg fulan instead of hunan!! n's and ng's are confused, eg tianjing instead of tianjin (very few Chinese people know when to use the qianbiyin and when to use the houbiyin). In Tianjin, I noticed that r's and y's were interchanged, eg rong4 for yong4 (to use), and yongyi, instead of rongyi (easy). Having said that, pronouncing cong as chong is not putonghua - I would get another teacher. But all the same you need to get used to hearing substandard pronounciations. Zhuochai from a Cantonese speaker probably means zuocai, to make food.

[wix]

My teacher is from Beijing therefore pronounces Putonghua perfectly.

I think this Beijing-centric view of Mandarin is not helpful. Standard pronunciation does not necessarily mean speaking like someone from Beijing. I think it is best defined as clear and accurate pronunciation that is easily understood.

It is also important to recognise regional differences and most significantly the difference between the north and south.

Given that Mandarin is spoken by such a large amount of people variation is inevitable. However, compare it to another very widely spoken language, English. There is no single form of English that can rightly claim to be standard. However, standard and non-standard forms can be recognised. The most obvious examples are comparing standard UK or US English with the English spoken in India or Malaysia.

[fenlan]

Wix, I think there is a semantic debate about the meaning of "putonghua", whether it refers to Mandarin, or only to a standardised version of Mandarin, as in some kind of "received pronunciation". As far as I use the term, Mandarin and putonghua are not synonymous.

[devi9]

fenlan I am very glad you brought this up. When I was in Beijing everyone referred to what they were speaking as 普通话 not 北京话. I know for dialect dictionaries they title them 北京口语词典 or 北京土语词典, not 普通话词典, but I thought that Mandarin was 国语 or just plain 汉语. If that's true, what exactly is 普通话? This thread's confused me.

[盤古]

...but I thought that Mandarin was 国语 or just plain 汉语. If that's true, what exactly is 普通话? This thread's confused me.

国语 Guoyu, 汉语 Hanyu, and 普通话 Putonghua are all translated into "Mandarin" in English.

国语 was first used by KMT which is why now in Taiwan, Mandarin is called 国语.

普通话 was first used by CCP and is still used in mainland China today.

汉语, I believe, is being popularized to replace 普通话 to be more sensitive toward ethnic minority languages. 国语 literally means "national language" while 普通话 means "common language", both imply that Mandarin is, or rather should be the "standard" and therefore may offend ethnic minorities who speak another language. 汉语 simply means "language of the Han ethnicity".

[gato]

See this wikipedia page. Many words that are a part of the local Beijing dialect (one might call them slang) are not considered part of standard Mandarin.

You can think of standardized Mandarin as the Chinese counterpart to Hollywood/TV-network/BBC English. It's the standard that most people try to emulate. TV announcers in China typically speak in standard Mandarin rather than Beijing Mandarin with its constant tongue rolling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_%28linguistics%29

Mandarin Sound listen?(Traditional: 北方話, Simplified: 北方话, Hanyu Pinyin: Běifānghuà, lit. "Northern speech" OR 北方方言 Hanyu Pinyin: Běifāng Fāngyán, lit. "Northern dialects"), is a category of Chinese dialects spoken across most of northern and southwestern China. The term "Mandarin" can also refer to Standard Mandarin, which is based on the Mandarin dialect spoken in Beijing. Standard Mandarin is the official spoken language of the People's Republic of China, the Republic of China (Taiwan), and one of the official spoken languages of Singapore.

From an official point of view, there are two versions of standardized spoken Mandarin, since the Beijing government refers to that on the Mainland as Putonghua, whereas the Taipei government refers to their official language as Kuo-yü (Guoyu in pinyin).

Technically, both Putonghua and Guoyu base their phonology on the Beijing dialect, though Putonghua also takes some elements from other sources. Comparison of dictionaries produced in the two areas will show that there are few substantial differences. However, both versions of "school" Mandarin are often quite different from the Mandarin that is spoken in accordance with regional habits, and neither is identical to even Beijing dialect. Putonghua and Guoyu also differ from the Beijing dialect in vocabulary, grammar, and usage.

[fenlan]

Let me give an example. Sichuan dialect is considered one of the subdialects - ci4yao4 fang1yan2 - of Northern Chinese (aka Mandarin). But Sichuanhua is most definitely not putonghua. By the way, I can't understand Sichuanhua. Can most Mandarin speakers on this forum understand this dialect, which is supposedly Mandarin?

[atitarev]

c>ch

ch>c

s>sh

sh>s

z>zh

zh>z

n>l

h>f

n>ng

ng>n

r>y

y>r

These are common differences in pronunciation. First the z' date=' c, s, are often replaced by zh, ch, sh and vice versa. (But I think pronouncing ch as c is more common that pronouncing c as ch). Many southerners can't pronounce n propertly, eg lan instead of nan. Many substitute f for h, eg fulan instead of hunan!! n's and ng's are confused, eg tianjing instead of tianjin (very few Chinese people know when to use the qianbiyin and when to use the houbiyin). In Tianjin, I noticed that r's and y's were interchanged, eg rong4 for yong4 (to use), and yongyi, instead of rongyi (easy). Having said that, pronouncing cong as chong is not putonghua - I would get another teacher. But all the same you need to get used to hearing substandard pronounciations. Zhuochai from a Cantonese speaker probably means zuocai, to make food.[/quote']

Fenlan, can I ask you when the examples below happen? As far as I know the Southern dialects simply don't have initials starting with zh, ch, r and sh. For example Yale romanization uses ch for Cantonese sounds but in fact it is what c is in pinyin. I agree the Chinese from the South pronounce CH as C but not the reverse, maybe I am wrong but please explain your point.

s>sh

z>zh

[gato]

By the way, I can't understand Sichuanhua. Can most Mandarin speakers on this forum understand this dialect, which is supposedly Mandarin?

Probably not, but it is easier to understand than Cantonese for a Mandarin speaker. The pronunciation is very different, but maybe its grammar is closer to Beijing Mandarin.

Here's an episode of "Tom and Jerry" in Sichuanese:

http://yzcatv.com.cn/moviehtml/3710.html

[fenlan]

Здравствуй, Анатолий. As I said earlier, it is more common to hear the zh>z, ch>c and sh>s conversions (and southerners find r difficult to pronounce as well). As you said it would make sense for them to stick to the z, c and s they know, and not try to add in zh, ch, and sh. But I have met *many* Hong Kongers who said things like "zhuochai". I think this may be "overcompensation". In other words, their pinyin is not good, they know that in standard Mandarin there is a distinction between zhi and zi, but don't know where to make this distinction. This is similar to the way some English people, aware that the "h" is dropped in Cockney pronunciation, put it in in the wrong words, eg "has" for "as" [i used to know someone who did this.] I don't think there is a regular rule to describe when southern Chinese would overcompensate and use zh for z - it is just overcompensation. The key point is to be aware that the two series z, c, s and zh, ch, sh are to some extent interchangeable. I have been caught out so many times by this. I remember a Chinese man on a bus trying to tell me about climbing mountains - pa2 shan1, but I couldn't understand, as he said pa2san1.

[atitarev]

Здравствуй, Анатолий. As I said earlier, it is more common to hear the zh>z, ch>c and sh>s conversions (and southerners find r difficult to pronounce as well). As you said it would make sense for them to stick to the z, c and s they know, and not try to add in zh, ch, and sh. But I have met *many* Hong Kongers who said things like "zhuochai". I think this may be "overcompensation". In other words, their pinyin is not good, they know that in standard Mandarin there is a distinction between zhi and zi, but don't know where to make this distinction. This is similar to the way some English people, aware that the "h" is dropped in Cockney pronunciation, put it in in the wrong words, eg "has" for "as" [i used to know someone who did this.'] I don't think there is a regular rule to describe when southern Chinese would overcompensate and use zh for z - it is just overcompensation. The key point is to be aware that the two series z, c, s and zh, ch, sh are to some extent interchangeable. I have been caught out so many times by this. I remember a Chinese man on a bus trying to tell me about climbing mountains - pa2 shan1, but I couldn't understand, as he said pa2san1.

Здравствуй, Фэньлань! Спасибо - thank you Yeah, I thought it was the lack of pinyin knowledge/overcompensation as I said in my previous posts, juts wanted to confirm.

I wonder with the initial R - which maps to Cantonese Y in many words (Riben - Yatbun - Japan) and is missing in Southern dialects - what is the sound like when Southerners try to speak Mandarin?

[HashiriKata]

I wonder with the initial R - which maps to Cantonese Y in many words (Riben - Yatbun - Japan) and is missing in Southern dialects - what is the sound like when Southerners try to speak Mandarin?

This is what I want to know as well, so this long-dead thread is now resurrected! Those people who don't have R in their repertoire, how do they say these words: reng-ran, ruan-ruo, ren-rang, etc.? I've heard one Taiwanese use L for R. Is L the most common substitute?

[Koneko]

I find that words ending with "n" and "ng" are harder to differentiate! I don't think many native speakers can catch these differences during normal conversations.

K.

[ziyi star]

hashirikata

This is what I want to know as well, so this long-dead thread is now resurrected! Those people who don't have R in their repertoire, how do they say these words: reng-ran, ruan-ruo, ren-rang, etc.? I've heard one Taiwanese use L for R. Is L the most common substitute?

from what i heard from people talking, i believe the L is the most common substitue

[Koneko]

from what i heard from people talking, i believe the L is the most common substitue

In Southern China, yes!

K.

[Lugubert]

For example, I say "m" meaning "我wo3 I". I don't think there is a character for it.

In Mathew's Dictionary, you'll find 我 under "WO. (O)", but only as cross-referenced to the main entry, under "O. NGO. (Oh)". Do you really need another character? Wouldn't it be like using different alphabets for British and American English?.

When Yuen Ren Chao (赵元任) made the very first recordings of Putonghua in 1921, he is reported to jokingly have said that he was the one and only speaker of Putonghua.

[trien27]

New Zealand: Sometimes the New is translated into Chinese, so it's a "meaning" translation, whereas sometimes Niu is substituted for the word "New" because phonetics is used, so it's a "sound" translation. Some other examples of other locations, where there's 2 translations in Chinese:

Los Angeles(Spanish for "The Angels")["sound":One translation uses Mandarin; the other uses Cantonese]

Newport [possibly two translations: one by definition, the other by sound/phonetics.]

New Jersey

New Hampshire

New Orleans

San Francisco(Spanish for Saint Francis)[One uses an old Chinese name for the area: sound translation:The other one uses Mandarin]

Note: There's only one translation for "New York", that is: Niu is used as an approximate rendering in Chinese for "New". I, personally believe, New York was translated into Chinese using the Cantonese dialect, when the Cantonese came and translated the name of the city where they lived in 1840's & 1850's.

[trien27]

"This is what I want to know as well, so this long-dead thread is now resurrected! Those people who don't have R in their repertoire, how do they say these words: reng-ran, ruan-ruo, ren-rang, etc.? I've heard one Taiwanese use L for R. Is L the most common substitute?"

ruan-ruo = (Cantonese) Yuen-yu®k.