The advice "don't drill word lists, drill sentences" is wrong

[imron]

15 hours ago, realmayo said:

If you know, say, 10,000 words, then your vocabulary will only increase really slowly if you insist on only learning words which you know you'll  encounter repeatedly in context.

I disagree with this.  At 10,000 words, if you're doing regular reading you'll still come across plenty of new words that you'll encounter several times a year.  It can be hard to prioritise which ones to learn and which ones to ignore, but there are various different ways to do that such that it's not a huge problem even if you do end up trying to learn words that you won't encounter again, or won't encounter for a very long time.

 

15 hours ago, realmayo said:

That's not much different from learning a word list.

There's a huge difference, because assuming you start revising those words within a day or two of first seeing them and not do something silly like waiting a month or so, then you'll be able to associate them with the context in which they were learnt and it will be easier to remember them.

[Flickserve]

On 28 May 2017 at 11:44 AM, werewitt said:

 

I agree that pure exposure to sentences (aka reading), maybe even drilling simple 2-3 word collocations is useful, but substituting memorising long sentences for memorising words is not.

 

Can memorise short sentences. 

[stapler]

The OPs post is misleading. The article states "There is little doubt about the helpfulness of contexts such as a sentence or a text in the process of learning words. A context not only shows the word and its use, but it can also help in retaining a word and its meaning". The only concern they have is that "First, many (concrete) words can be learned efficiently without context." and "Second, and this is actually the main point, learning a word in a particular context may result in a learner knowing the word only in that context, or worse: not even recognizing the word outside that context." I'm not sure what's being "debunked". If anything, the article appears to be supporting the idea that you learn words in sentences, just make sure that you study a good variety of them.

 

In any case the OP is mistaken if he believes the point of studying sentences is merely to learn words. That's just a small benefit. The point of studying sentences over words is to learn how to use the language, including new words. Learning words and then doing a 'machine' translations of words from your own language into the target language leads to the terrible Chinglish we and Chinese English learners suffer. Languages are incredibly idiomatic and grammar will only get you so far. Good quality sentences are one way to overcome the limitations of a "grammar and words" only approach.

 

This isn't just "the idiots on Chinese Forums talking without uploading their linguistics credentials". As per the OPs demands, here's a journalistic piece that contains an overview and some links to the academic material he requires:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/mar/26/leixical-approach-revolution

 

[Wurstmann]

16 hours ago, realmayo said:

I think the reason I'm scared of using that kind of sentences-method is because I'd fret that my sentences weren't natural Chinese. For some reason, that sentence about the 绝命书 makes me uneasy, almost certainly it's the fault of my limited sense of when 发现 is most likely to be used.

 

I take my sentences from dictionaries and weibo, so hopefully they are right. But even if there were some mistakes sometimes, that doesn't really matter. You will come across the word so many times in your life; I think you will notice more and more things about a word and subsequently adjust the image you have in your head of its meaning and usage. I'm too lazy to really learn a word and its usage and how it compares to (near-)synonyms. I don't know what approach is the 'best', the most efficient, but I can only keep on learning if it doesn't bore me. 

 

By the way, how do you 'feel' or expect 发现 being used?

[dtcamero]

um...learn both?

 

if you're learning word lists, it's better to have an example sentence...

 

if you're learning sentences, you'll need definitions for the unknown words...

 

these are things that complement each other, so best to do both. 

 

 

after trying everything, if one method is working better than the other, do more of that.

 

then try some Subs2SRS also for good measure  or some MCD's, or some (whatever)...

 

 

moreover, whatever is working well now might give you increasingly marginal returns 6 months from now, so you can try other things then. 

 

there is no optimal language study method that gives a one-size fits all solution to students broadly, or even to a single student over the several years it will take to acquire proficiency..

[Guest realmayo]

12 hours ago, imron said:

you'll still come across plenty of new words that you'll encounter several times a year

 

But that's not learning in context in the sense of studying a text thoroughly which repeatedly uses the new word. If you learn off a word list, your argument holds true too: plenty of words on your word list are ones that you'll encounter several times a year, if you read regularly.

 

I agree that any book you read will have some new words cropping up repeatedly, they're the low-hanging fruit and end up being easy to remember once you've finished the book.

 

But -- unless you limit yourself to just those words -- most new vocabulary will (a) not be encountered again for weeks or months and (b) will be in a completely different context each time you see it. So, the original context isn't that relevant. So, it's not much different from a word list. (Unless you've got such a good memory that you're able to remember the context as well as remember the word, for all the new words you learn.)

 

But obviously it's not exactly the same as a word list. Personally I do indeed find it easier, when sitting down to learn a few words for the first time, if I've come across these words recently and can remember where. So sure, there is some benefit. But for me, personally, that benefit seems to dry up a week or two after sitting down to learn that word. And it may be outweighed by any time spent initially 'collecting' from context.

[Guest realmayo]

2 hours ago, Wurstmann said:

By the way, how do you 'feel' or expect 发现 being used?

 

I'd want to ask a native speaker about whether it does have this very clean one-to-one match with the English word "discover" in the context of "discover a suicide note" or indeed "discover a body". If you're out searching for such a note, I can understand 发现 being used. And if a note turns up unexpectedly, again, 发现 works for me. But where something is neither actively being searched for, nor come across by pure chance in unlikely circumstances, then although the English word "discover" works fine, I just don't know about the Chinese 发现。 So personally I know that I'd fret about it But I think that's my problem, not yours!

[Lu]

1 hour ago, dtcamero said:

um...learn both?

This is the answer to many, if not all, of these discussions, I feel. Should I read a lot or SRS a lot? Should I start talking right away or first listen? Should I concentrate on tones or on accent? Should I learn radicals first or study real characters from the start? Should I get a tutor or a textbook? 等等等等. The answer is yes. Learn both.

[imron]

13 hours ago, realmayo said:

If you learn off a word list, your argument holds true too: plenty of words on your word list are ones that you'll encounter several times a year, if you read regularly.

This then highlights another important difference between learning from context and learning from generic word lists compiled by other people.  When learning from context, all the words you learn are directly relevant to you at that point in time.  If you learn from a generic word list, it will have been compiled from a variety of sources across a variety of genres, fields and topics so there will be a large number of words that are not particularly relevant to you at the moment (or possibly even for several years).

 

Yes, there will be words you learn in context that you will never see again, and words you learn in word lists that will be relevant to you right now, but the relative proportions are stacked in favour of learning from context - often by an order of magnitude.

[imron]

Cleaned up a bunch of off-topic posts.  Further discussion not related to drilling word lists vs sentences will be removed.  Take it to PM if you feel there's any off-topic discussion left unsaid.