The connection between passive and active skills

[Ori_A]

Hello,
*There is no actual question here, more of sharing my thoughts and hoping to see other people's opinion.*
I'm a native speaker of the Hebrew language, and can speak English (very well) and Chinese (pretty decent) as well. I've started to actively think about this subject of passive and active skills during the past year, as well as about the importance of each skill (writing, reading, listening and speaking), first because I find it very interesting, and second because I think I could make my learning more effective.

When thinking about my English learning process, I would surprisingly (or not) say that speaking has had very little, if any effect on my learning. I started learning when I was 10, and did so for 8 years, during which my speaking time was limited to a few minutes during each class (if at all). I did get myself exposed to a lot of content, through TV, books and computer games, but never speaking. The first time I actually spoke English for more than 3 minutes was when I was 23 years old, while travelling in New Zealnd. And the thing is, my speaking was fine right from the start. It wasn't excellent, and obviously improved a lot since then, but I could take part in conversations dealing with many topics, while never having done that in a converstation before that time.

When rethinking my Chinese learning experience, I've had, again, a few minutes of speaking Chinese each class while learning in Israel, but nothing more than that. When I first got to China, I've had some problems with my fluency and tones, but that improved very quickly, and within a month i could use much of the vocabulary I had learned before that (not a lot, but still..), again, while never having used it in a conversation before.

This all made me think about the importance of speaking (and writing) when *learning* a language, and how much time should I focus on doing it. It has a lot to do with some theories in Linguistics, such as the Comprehensible input hypothesis. To put it more simply into one question: Regardless of someone's speaking practice time, is it possible for that someone to have excellent listening skills (listening and understanding the news, movies and TV shows *without subtitles*), but not having at least very decent speaking skills? 
The passive skills will obviously always be much better than the active skills, and I think that's true for most of us even in our own mother languages. But according to my own experience, the passive skills have an enormous influence on our active skills (while not being true the other way around). I would assume that someone who's never spoken more than a few sentences in Chinese, but developed very high listening skills, would only need a short period of time of acclimatization before being able to speak it in a decent level, mainly focusing on getting used to the rhythm in speaking and the tones (in the case of tonal languages). 

This is based on my personal experience alone, and I'd be happy to learn about other people's experiences while learning Chinese or other languages. Did anyone have the experience of getting to a very high level of listening or reading (or both), while doing very little speaking or writing? What was your active skills like after that period of time?

 

Two points, just to be clear:
1) I'm not talking about getting to a very high level of speech without practice. My speaking abilities and my use of vocabulary even in *Hebrew* has improved a lot during the past few years, all because of my usage of the laguage in very specific situations. I'm talking about getting to a decent conversational level with little speaking practice, but a very high listening level.

2) I'm not trying to say that we shouldn't speak while learning. I'm trying the suggest that speaking might not be all that important when learning, while very importance when using the language. So for someone who's learning Chinese outside of China, maybe a much better use of your time would be listening, absorbing, and not so much speaking, because that would be easier to accomplish later.

[Flynn F.]

Very astute observation Ori

I agree with you ...strong passive skills help the active skills but not vice versa.

[lips]

会听不会讲 is common in second generation Chinese immigrants.

[eddyf]

What you're saying generally matches with my personal experience and observations. With good passive skills as a foundation, active skills can be picked up very quickly, especially in an immersion environment. And active practice can't really increase passive knowledge (not directly at least--if you're having conversations then you're still acquiring passive knowledge through listening).

 

By "active skills" I only mean the ability to recall words and form sentences. I think pronunciation works differently. In that case I don't think that passive skills help that much. Good pronunciation really requires getting a lot of practice and doing drills. It's more like learning to play an instrument. 

[Ori_A]

I also think pronunciation works differently, but it doesn't necessarily require a lot of practice. It really depends on what language do you speak, and what language you're trying to learn. Specifically with Chinese, pronunciation does require practice to most people because of the tones and the not so commonly used consonants. It would require much less practice to get accurate pronunciation speaking many other languages (again, depend on your mother language and previous training). 

 

1 hour ago, lips said:

会听不会讲 is common in second generation Chinese immigrants.

 

Have you ever met someone who can understand almost everything, but can't speak? 

I'm seriously asking because I've never met someone like that, even amongst second generation immigrants.

If someone can't speak at all, or can only say a few sentences, I seriously doubt his listening abilities are very good.

But I'd be happy to be proven wrong if anyone has an example.

 

[zander1]

Just now, Ori_A said:

understand almost everything, but can't speak? 

 

Yes, many times. Particuarly with dialects, I know many people who can understand what their grandparents etc. are saying when speaking dialect but can barely string a sentence together in reply.

[lips]

1 minute ago, Ori_A said:

Have you ever met someone who can understand almost everything, but can't speak? 

Yes, many.  Not more than speaking isolated words and badly formed simple phrases with difficulty.

[Ori_A]

@zander1 @lips

 

Thank you for commenting. Is it because they just never spoke it, or because they're not very interested in doing so? In other words, do you believe that these people could pick up their 口语 quickly should they choose to do so? 

[889]

Very common among Japanese who've spent years studying -- sometimes even teaching -- English. Reading, no problem at all. Listening OK, too. But so hard for so many to say even the simplest sentence without stuttering.

[werewitt]

A common situation is - immigrant parents in an English speaking country understand English well but speak mostly Chinese at home, because it's easier for them. As a result - the kid, growing up at school etc where everything is English, forgets the little he learned as child, and grows up 会听不会讲.

 

And BTW the ones who speak Chinese (mostly Cantonese, I suspect - there are few second gen Mandarin speakers) cannot read or write.

[Ori_A]

Reading and writing are two completely different skills (though can he discussed as well - some who can read and understand everything, but can't write?). And I'm very familiar with the situation you describe, it's just that I would say that even if they forgot how to speak, but maintained a high level of listening ability somehow (which is weird if they only used the language as children), picking up the speaking again would not be very difficult.

 

15 minutes ago, 889 said:

Listening OK, too.

 

I've met many Chinese people who can't speak English at all, and seem to have a reasonable 听力 level. But when getting into a bit more than basic conversations, they get lost. Would you say that's the same with the Japanese teachers you speak of?

 

Again, I only mean someone with *very* good listening abilities.

[889]

Of course. But to be honest, that's true of most of us when it comes to Chinese as well. You know the feeling: the water's suddenly deeper than you thought, you can't touch bottom, and you start to flail away.

 

We all like to think we speak well, but in fact we need the cooperation of a Chinese speaker who can quickly judge our level of Chinese and match it, keeping our confidence high enough so we can respond without stuttering about. Again, speaking of more than just basic conversation.

 

We don't do it because it's very rude, but we all know how easy it would be to tie even a very accomplished non-native English speaker in knots. Thankfully, Chinese people aren't rude either, and don't tie us in knots. But don't forget how easily they could.

[Ori_A]

I agree with you of course, and I ment no disrespect here. I'm not talking about deliberately making it difficult, but rather being able to understand most of the native content commonly used by the speakers of that language. That's a very high 听力 level.

That way, even without a lot of speaking practice, I personally believe it would possible to get to a decent speaking level very quickly, putting aside the pronunciation issues one might have with a certain language (for example, Japanese people speaking English). 

[Flickserve]

3 hours ago, Ori_A said:

Have you ever met someone who can understand almost everything, but can't speak? 

 

This comes to what you define as absolutely everything. Even native speakers cannot understand almost everything. When you go to University and discuss concepts in your course, that terminology is initially not in your vocabulary. A physics major will have problems going straight into a medical course and vice versa. Could you handle a discussion on decorating the house with an interior designer straight off in a second language.

 

but definitely there are many 會聽不會講 around.

[Ori_A]

I wrote it one comment above yours, sorry if I wasn't clear on that in the beginning.

Understanding most of the common content used by native speakers. That sums up to news, movies, TV shows, popular books, and, depending on the person's interest, maybe even a short lecture in popular science, using words like gravity, black holes, galaxy, and other words which most of the capable English speakers, or capable listeners (native or not) would understand. I basically mean a very high level, being very comfortable with the language most of the time.

 

I understand the point of 会听不会说. I've personally only met people who can't speak, and their listening is quite limited too, never someone with "fluent" listening and no speaking. Even if there are many of those, as several people have pointed out, my guess is that their process of learning to speak (to a level higher than just asking for directions on the street) would be extremely short.

 

That was basically my point on learning a language and deviding the time properly. I know that when I start learning French in the summer, I will focus much (much) more on listening right from the start, knowing a higher lever will make me get the speaking right much faster once I start, and with a much richer vocabulary. That is opposed to, let's say, dedicating 30% of my time to speaking practice right from the start, when my passive skills are not very good.

 

Anyway, that's just my own experience from learning English and Chinese.

[LiMo]

I've had a similar experience. I spent a lot of time reading and watching TV shows, and reading the subtitles because while my listening is good enough for a conversation it's not up to following witty scripted dialogue. At the end of it I found that my speaking skills were surprisingly good. Not amazing, but definitely better than fresh off the plane British tourist level. It didn't take as much focused effort as I would have expected to reach a reasonable speaking level.

[Flickserve]

8 hours ago, Ori_A said:

That sums up to news, movies, TV shows, popular books, and, depending on the person's interest, maybe even a short lecture in popular science, using words like gravity, black holes, galaxy, and other words which most of the capable English speakers, or capable listeners (native or not) would understand. I basically mean a very high level, being very comfortable with the language most of the time.

 

I think that is quite hard to have that high a listening level yet not be able to speak the language. Most heritage speakers learn from illiterate or only basic literacy grand parents or low level English parents. Discussing black holes and galaxies are not things you talk about when working the land or in manual labour jobs. However, if you talk about getting around in basic activities of daily living, conversation or even being explained things at the workplace, then these are things that can be managed. And their vocabulary for words that they don't know can pick up really quickly.

[Ori_A]

Yes, that's exactly what I thought, and that's why I stressed the point of a very high listening level, as well as the relation to adults learning a new language. The heritage speakers, to my understanding, can understand only simple conversations, because that's what their grandparents and other family members were using with them. As you said, if they were exposed to a very rich language, getting to some kind of "fluency" in listening, it's hard to imagine they wouldn't be able to speak, even if their speaking practice is very limited. 

[lips]

22 hours ago, Flickserve said:

Most heritage speakers learn from illiterate or only basic literacy grand parents or low level English parents.

This might be true 40 years ago but since then there had been a whole new generation of Chinese immigrants who were highly educated and successful in the workplace and business outside of China, especially in North America and Europe.  Their children would be fluent, at least in listening *and* speaking Chinese (Mandarin or Putonghua or Cantonese or other dialects), if their parents spoke to them and got them to speak Chinese at home.

[Flickserve]

But are those parents going to talk to them about concepts learnt in secondary school using Chinese when the de facto learning language is English?

 

Are they going to talk about molar mass, differentiation, exothermic endothermic reactions etc in Chinese when the kid learns it in English.....and the kid not being able to speak Chinese. To get to that level of listening ability, I very much doubt a person can claim to have no speaking ability in Chinese.