Someone care to opine on this? A resignation note by a Chinese guy

[agelastic]

餘自辛卯年末，蒙前辈錯愛，收容門下，已近二载有余。初遇諸君時，餘尚少不更事，懵懂無知，陋識鰥見，洋相百出，全賴長者提攜，耳提面命，同僚指點，各方包容，豐吾以計，厚吾以德，又兼日常關照，噓寒問暖。更有觥籌交錯，把盞言歡，不勝快意之時，吾方得身處他鄉卻無違和之感。今俯首追思，歷歷在目，甚感吾心。

然吾本鄉民，既非職業之才，又無廟堂之志，終日汲汲營營卻心存惘然，長此以往，百無一利。今忖度良久，糾結數月，終決意請辭，另覓他途，萬不敢枉食功祿，應景混事，徒增笑耳。在位諸君，自多珍重，雖身處雲物濁擾之世，目視日薄桑榆之像，亦能陋室出青蓮，冰心存玉壺。切切勿忘初心，利益有情，方得始終。

一日共事，終生為友。今日別過，願望常思。紙短情長，不盡依。

[陳德聰]

Seems a bit dramatic.

[roddy]

Why are you posting it? You posted this on reddit yesterday asking how long it would take a learner to be able to write it. 

[agelastic]

To upset you personally, @roddy, obviously. I got my answer there already. 15+ years of diligent studies, if ever.

[RogerGe]

Agelastic. Why didn't you just use your werewitt account?

[agelastic]

Same reason I haven't used my RogerGe account.

[陳德聰]

I guess I just don't really get why people aspire to be able to write the Chinese equivalent of "thou dost in me evoketh feelings wherefore I must quit mine job".

[耳耳语语]

First posted on Shangai reddit 2 years ago, about the meaning
https://www.reddit.com/r/shanghai/comments/2ewc9n/one_of_my_chinese_colleagues_resigned_today_and/

 

Then on reddit, about the level of literacy represented
https://www.reddit.com/r/ChineseLanguage/comments/6l5umw/be_honest_fluent_learners_how_many_years_of/

 

[陳德聰]

Reddit user Cloud668 in the first link is my hero for this translation:

 

紙短情長，不盡依。

"I can write more bullshit but I ain't gonna"

 

I don't know if people recall, but:

https://www.chinese-forums.com/forums/topic/51080-a-judges-resignation-letter/

 

Moral of the story is, if you have tact, feel free to use some archaic references in your writing. If you want to sound like a total knob, by all means, fill your writing to the brim with archaic references. This kind of thing entertains my father-in-law, and has all of my peers rolling their eyes.

[Kenny同志]

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I guess I just don't really get why people aspire to be able to write the Chinese equivalent of "thou dost in me evoketh feelings wherefore I must quit mine job".

 

Quote

 

紙短情長，不盡依。

"I can write more bullshit but I ain't gonna"

 

If all Chinese discard 我父親/家父 for 我老子 every time we need to mention our fathers, would you say that's an indicator of linguistic progress? 

 

We have a tradition of writing in a language that is very different from colloquial Chinese for thousands of years. If you wish to write in colloquial Chinese, that's perfectly fine, but humiliating anyone who chooses to write in classical Chinese is unacceptable.

 

[耳耳语语]

I think one question would be : for native chinese people, would the original resignation letter be considered as weird (kind of tongue-in-cheek, or condescendant, or overdramatic, or even pedantic) or appropriate and educated ?

 

 

 

 

[陳德聰]

2 hours ago, Kenny同志 said:

We have a tradition of writing in a language that is very different from colloquial Chinese for thousands of years. If you wish to write in colloquial Chinese, that's perfectly fine, but humiliating anyone who chooses to write in classical Chinese is unacceptable.

 

There's big difference between writing in Classical Chinese and writing a resignation letter in ostentatious quasi-classical language.

 

There is nothing inherently wrong with classical language, but there is something inherently ridiculous and anachronistic about insisting on using classical language in contemporary settings where it is completely uncalled for. To me it comes off as nothing more than intellectual masturbation. You'll notice I specifically mentioned that with tact, it can be done well to achieve whatever the desired effect may be.

 

But do you genuinely feel that this resignation letter is normal? Who is the audience, what is the desired effect? There is nothing clear and concise about it, as you have previously championed 文言文 to be. Classical Chinese has its uses, but there is nothing "unacceptable" about ridiculing its ridiculous use.

[陳德聰]

I want to be clear, I think literature is art, and art can be beautiful. But there are still lots of reasons we think certain art is beautiful and other art is not. Is it not about context like everything else? I can appreciate Michelangelo's David, but I am not going to put a replica in the middle of my living room. I would be even less inclined to put a crappy replica (made from bird poo) in the middle of my living room. Would the replica maybe be appropriate in an art gallery or as an outdoor installation? Sure.

 

But take this string for example:

"尚少不更事，懵懂無知，陋識鰥見，洋相百出，全賴長者提攜，耳提面命，同僚指點，各方包容，豐吾以計，厚吾以德，又兼日常關照，噓寒問暖。"

 

Why. Why repeat the same concept so many times?

 

少不更事

懵懂

無知

陋識鰥見

Okay we get it, you don't know things.

 

長者提攜

耳提面命

同僚指點

So you need everyone's help.

 

日常關照

噓寒問暖

And they're kind and care about you in spite of it. So why am I reading the same thing sometimes three times over, with some feeling like they've just been 拼湊起來?

 

Also this part really gets me:

雖身處雲物濁擾之世，目視日薄桑榆之像，亦能陋室出青蓮，冰心存玉壺。

Sorry, are they dying? To me this is not even a problem of the classical language but the allusions he chose!

[Kenny同志]

少不更事——謂年輕，所歷之事少

懵懂無知——謂不諳世事，容易犯錯、上當

陋識鰥見——「鰥見」疑為「寡見」之誤，但即使改為「寡見」（見識少），仍無法與「陋識」（粗陋的見識）合用。不論怎樣，作者想表達的意思是學識淺陋

 

長者提攜——謂前輩栽培

耳提面命——謂前輩教誨諄諄

同僚指點——謂同事指點

 

日常關照——謂工作上予以幫助

噓寒問暖——謂生活上予以關心

 

This letter contains a few problems but repetition is not one of them, or at least it is not a major problem.

 

Anyway, if I was a boss, I would not expect a formal resignation letter that reads: '老闆：這份工作不適合我，我不想幹了' from an educated employee.

 

 

[Kenny同志]

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Also this part really gets me:

雖身處雲物濁擾之世，目視日薄桑榆之像，亦能陋室出青蓮，冰心存玉壺。

Sorry, are they dying?

 

The author was alluding to 紅朝, which he believed was going to collapse.

[Kenny同志]

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I want to be clear, I think literature is art, and art can be beautiful. But there are still lots of reasons we think certain art is beautiful and other art is not. Is it not about context like everything else? I can appreciate Michelangelo's David, but I am not going to put a replica in the middle of my living room. I would be even less inclined to put a crappy replica (made from bird poo) in the middle of my living room. Would the replica maybe be appropriate in an art gallery or as an outdoor installation? Sure.

Classical Chinese is essentially a language that people use to communicate with each other, just like colloquial Chinese. I don't think it is a work of art that should only be appreciated in a museum or gallery.

 

 

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There's big difference between writing in Classical Chinese and writing a resignation letter in ostentatious quasi-classical language.

How do you define 文言? I am afraid sometimes it can be very hard to tell whether a piece of writing is 文言 or not.

 

Like any other language, 文言 evolves. If we insist on defining 文言 as something that is written in the same way as 左傳 or 史記 and refuse any new developments, that would be folly and kill the language (I know it's a dead language to many people). In my opinion, any writing that follows 文言 grammar and pattern and chiefly uses its vocabulary can be considered  文言.

 

Many people dismiss 梁啟超's writing as quasi-classical Chinese and ridicule it but I think it might be a step in the right direction.

 

Edit:

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In my opinion, any writing that follows 文言 grammar and pattern and chiefly uses its vocabulary can be considered  文言.

I am sorry I don't have the capacity to define 文言 here but you know what I mean by it.

 

 

[Publius]

17 hours ago, Kenny同志 said:

If all Chinese discard 我父親/家父 for 我老子 every time we need to mention our fathers, would you say that's an indicator of linguistic progress? 

家嚴/家父 is appropriate for formal letters/wuxia novel. 慈父 is appropriate for gravestone. 咱爸 is appropriate when talking to family members. 我家老頭子/老爺子 is appropriate when talking to close friends. 我父親 is appropriate when talking to strangers. 我爸 is appropriate for Li Gang. 我老子 is appropriate for gangsta talk. There are many registers in the language. Educated adults don't need other people to tell them when to use which. 家父 and 我老子 are equally ridiculous when 我父親 is called for.

This letter is pretentious. Or in colloquial Chinese, 裝逼.

俺們那兒有句話叫：裝逼賣老，一律幹倒。 I see nothing wrong in ridiculing the ridiculous.

[Kenny同志]

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This letter is pretentious. Or in colloquial Chinese, 裝逼.

Whether it is pretentious depends on the author's and the reader's backgrounds. If the author is a researcher who works at a university or museum, I see nothing wrong with the letter. If the author is a cab driver, well, writing in such a style might sound affected.

 

I want to mention that not very long ago, a lot of correspondence between Chinese writers, painters, scholars, and politicians was still written in wenyan. I won't say that's, in your words, '裝x'.

 

http://roll.sohu.com/20121102/n356476264.shtml

 

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　裳兄文几：前奉致内子书，甚感垂注。弟十月下旬中寒，牵动宿疾，哮喘复发。打针服药，未为大患，而转成咳嗽，终日如《西青散记》中腐儒鬼咯咯先生，病魔多情变幻，缠贱躯作祟，前后约四十日，幸暂舍而之他矣。顷奉《山川·人物·历史》，昔之仅窥豹斑龙爪者，今乃获睹全身，情挟骚心，笔开生面，解颐娱目，荡气回肠，兼而有之。愚夫妇得挂姓名，如登金榜，不胜愧谢。惟弟发已半灰，山妇发未全白；弟面色黄而兄目为紫棠，是变《水浒》中之病关索为《金瓶梅》之王六儿矣。大著必传世，误尽千秋考据家，奈何奈何，呵呵。专此布谢，即叩冬祺。弟钱锺书敬上，杨绛同候。十二月五日。

　　此信写于一九八一年二月，是收到我的《山川·历史·人物》后的复书。照例说了些过情的话。信的后半，对原书所记作了更正，晤面之时，我确为他的健康和善谈高兴，印象深刻，就这样写了。他又提到“考据家”，可见对之是一直怀有敬畏之情也。

 

[Publius]

The author was in a second-tier consultancy firm according to the original reddit poster.

[Kenny同志]

A few more letters