Alienation of Chinese students overseas

[Zbigniew]

I hope it's not too tangential to the theme of this thread, but it would be interesting to have an accurate picture of academic migration in the opposite direction, i.e. how many westerners, specifically, go to study what subjects in China. I've no accurate information to go on, but suspect that my instinctive feeling on the matter is a reasonable one, namely that going to China to study Chinese language (and in a few cases literature?) accounts for a large proportion of students going there from English-speaking countries.

 

Assuming I'm right, this raises some important questions about differing values, priorities, strengths and weaknesses in western and Chinese education systems and in their respective societies generally, and by extension about the very different socio-political climates that are surely driving, to a large extent, students' choice of academic discipline either at home or overseas. 

 

I'd be interested to hear the views of anyone with a succint hypothesis on what essentially accounts for the broadly different academic choices made on the one hand by Chinese coming to the west and on the other by westerners going to China. 

 

 

[renzhe]

4 hours ago, Zbigniew said:

 

I'd be interested to hear the views of anyone with a succint hypothesis on what essentially accounts for the broadly different academic choices made on the one hand by Chinese coming to the west and on the other by westerners going to China. 

 

It seems obvious, doesn't it?

 

Getting a STEM degree from a famous university in the west is good for your career if you are Chinese. It will land you a better job. Getting a STEM degree from a Chinese university is not a winning proposition for a European or American student. It won't land you a better job.

 

There are excellent technical programmes in China, but those are not easier to get into than top programmes anywhere.

 

On the other hand, learning Chinese or something China-related at a Chinese university makes perfect sense.

[somethingfunny]

Yeah, if you're a US or UK student that wants to study anything except the Chinese language (or perhaps Chinese history), why would you go to a Chinese university?

 

It's not a case of differing values or priorities, but definitely a case of different strengths and weaknesses.  There are probably a few scientific research groups in China that are the leaders in their field and could attract overseas students, but at the moment, in STEM subjects at least, all eyes look west.

 

And this discussion, rightly so, should only focus on STEM subjects.  I don't have much experience, but I can't imagine Chinese academics are making much of an impact in the social sciences or humanities.

 

 

[Zbigniew]

Thanks for those contributions.

 

If, as you say, somethingfunny, Chinese academics aren't making much of an impact in the humanities, I'm curious to know why more Chinese students don't as a consequence want to study things like English literature in the west, where clearly the training to be had in that subject is likely to be superior to what can be had in China. Is a good qualification in the humanities obtained abroad considerably less advantageous to a person's career in China than a good STEM qualification, whether obtained abroad or at home? If so, why? It's traditionally been the case in the UK that the majority of people gaining high positions in government, for example, are humanities trained rather than STEM trained. Why is it that the opposite is the case in China, where the majority of the country's leaders are STEM trained?

 

 

[LiMo]

Well, as I think was mentioned earlier, perhaps most students simply aren't up to the challenge of the more language intensive courses. Having studied both a STEM subject and a humanities I can say that there's a pretty large divide as far as the difficulty of texts go. While scientific writing tends towards the simple but incredibly dry, some of the stuff I've had to read for my MA says the same thing six different ways in a sentence that's probably half a page long. The effect is much the same but at the very least the student can understand the former whereas they may be forced to re-read the latter multiple times to achieve true comprehension. I've actually had to do this as a native speaker who counts reading as a dear hobby so I can't imagine how difficult and demoralising it might be for Chinese students.

 

By way of example, my current language partner has asked me to help her read The Great Gatsby. She's been studying a mix of finance and economics and so far hasn't asked for help with any of that.  While she is perfectly capable of understanding most of the words in the text, the complexity of the sentences, poetic turn of phrase and subtle understatements (e.g. calling the First World War "a Teutonic migration" followed by a "counter-raid") make it next to impossible for her to decipher alone. I'd hate for her to try reading Gyatari Spivak's Can The Subaltern Speak (A very ponderous academic text full of academese of the highest calibre). I tried it once and left with several CCs of exhausted grey matter leaking out of my ears. I suppose there are many readers and commentaries on the more famous works (what I resorted to in the end), but it's still incredibly daunting.

 

Furthermore, as far as Chinese students' interest in English literature goes, it may well be receiving a thorough shafting from the Chinese education system. And by that I mean being forced to learn a foreign language is often the surest way to kill any interest a young person might have in it. Much has been said about the characteristics and quality of English teaching in China but inspiring is not a word I've heard associated with it.

 

Other than that I think it's still just a fact that people understand the relative employability of STEM majors is higher than for those in the arts and humanities. China is still developing a middle class that is comfortable with taking that risk, and so they still heavily favour the stable and pragmatic options. I did read a paper which found that lower class boys and girls all favoured STEM subjects and this was notable because middle class girls tended to avoid such majors. The conclusion was that middle class families are secure enough to let/push their girls into "easier" and more "feminine" subjects, whereas economic pressures eclipsed this tendency in lower class families. If we run with this gender angle for a bit I imagine very few families would be happy letting their son do a "soft" subject, let alone pay the exorbitant fees for him to do so abroad. So really the largest pool of such people is middle and upper class girls, a growing number all the time and probably not insignificant in absolute numbers, but still far outweighed by all the other Chinese students who come for reasons other than their personal interest. But at the end of the day this is all just speculation and I don't really have data on that. 

[Minotaur]

Pardon me if I am being too emotional, but I do hope people can be more considerate when they make their comments.

 

For anyone who doubts B2 level English would be sufficient for a Chinese undergraduate to study in a English-speaking country, I hope you could provide enough evidence to prove your point, as most, if not all, Chinese international students I know manager their life well. Not that I am not aware of these who waste their time on... I don't really know how they spend their time, but they are certainly just wasting their parent’s money for nothing. These people seldom pass B2 line. I would be really curious if you think a person who can barely speak English can get an H1 or Dean's honor in universities.

 

As for people who doubt our preference for STEM has anything to do with culture, you certainly don't know Chinese culture enough. You may have never heard of 学好数理化，走遍天下都不怕, or you have never been in a Chinese high school where studying arts is considered as a loser's choice when one cannot learn science well (as I say, such kind of opinion is prejudiced, but it's not uncommon). Learning arts or humanities is a noble choice for western bourgeois, but considering it as an only natural situation is rather self-centred. Not that I am denying universities in western countries are general better in STEM, but that cannot be the only reason. 

[LiMo]

The issue isn't necessarily whether or not they "manage their lives well." After all, there's actually a large amount of infrastructure in place for Chinese student's which means that they seldom if ever have to actually use English if they don't want to. There are all sorts of websites and services that cater to their needs in Chinese. Coupling this with the fact that there are so many other Chinese students around in their classes and on campus it means that even if they passed the exams with good marks, a decent amount will go home without having made any significant progress with their spoken English skills. Once the hard stuff has been dealt with in the first few months (renting, opening a bank account), almost everything else can be done with survival level English. Bear in mind that many language skills are somewhat isolated (this has become increasingly obvious to me personally, much to my disappointment), so while their reading and writing may have improved they could still be doing relatively poorly in spoken English which is what counts when you're talking about integration.

 

Please don't get the wrong idea, I don't think most people here are seeking to criticise Chinese students in a harsh or judgemental way (see how many likes Roddy's earlier post got), it's just a shame to see so many lost opportunities for intercultural understanding. We also acknowledge that many western institutions are failing to provide the support needed for a more integrated campus experience.

 

I think it's fair to assume that most people on the English speaking Chinese forums haven't spent much time in Chinese high schools...

 

I don't doubt an influence of culture, was just pointing out the clear economic sense of such decisions.

[Zbigniew]

2 hours ago, Minotaur said:

You may have never heard of 学好数理化，走遍天下都不怕, or you have never been in a Chinese high school where studying arts is considered as a loser's choice when one cannot learn science well

It was actually these kinds of sentiments, which I've heard direct from the lips of numerous Chinese people over the last few decades on occasions when the subject under discussion has turned to education, that prompted my two posts above.

 

To be a little more forthright, my thesis is that in China the reputation of the humanities as an academic discipline has been in noticeable decline over the last thirty years, and that social, economic and, most importantly perhaps, political factors are responsible for that decline. The political factors can be summarized by saying that, since the humanities encompass disciplines that are not only founded on free inquiry and free expression, but regard every aspect of human behaviour as legitimate material for scrutiny, the humanities are not the kind of discipline that a one-party state intent on minimizing political dissent is likely to want to encourage the study of.

 

This is not to say that there haven't been positive factors in China, as in the west, (e.g. the urge towards economic progress) that have served to prioritise the study of STEM subjects over less (or less obviously) pragmatic humanities subjects; it is simply saying that the relatively poor academic status the humanities have in China is partly to be explained by certain political factors that happen not to be factors that militate against the study of the humanities in the west.

[Minotaur]

I must clarify that my first post was not against anything written by @LiMo and @Zbigniew, I was responding to a pervious post on the first page and another reply made by somethingfunny.

 

I don’t doubt people on this forum don’t have any bad intention when we begin this topic, and I do believe people here have a better understanding of culture shock and the barrier one must overcome when he or she is trying to integrate themselves into another society. I can be a bit over-the-top defensive since I have heard a lot in the past, and not all of them are objective, or friendly. 

 

But still, I think it’s better to distinguish between “students fail to improve their spoken English because they don’t integrate themselves into the main stream society” and “students can’t speak good enough English to join the society”. I do feel a bit uncomfortable when people suggest IELTS 6.0 is not enough to provide a solid background for Chinese student to begin their communication with locals, since HSK 4 seems to be good enough for a non-Chinese speaker to begin their life (I’m not saying without any difficulties) in China, as what has been discussed on this forum. Also, universities in other European countries do not require candidates to be a fluent (i.e. C1 or C2) language speaker before they begin their study. The fact that I can observed is that, these who avoid talking to locals also avoid interacting with overseas students from other countries, even when they don’t need to feel awkward for their broken English. On the other hand, top 10% students are not only good at their coursework, they are also pretty competitive with internship, in which case we can safely assume they do speak fluent English. Even within the coursework, one cannot have a good mark on group assignments, presentations and lab work without good communication skills. People can speak good English at the same time not engage in extra-curriculum activities, where they make local friends. 

 

One of the problems, in my opinion, is that it is hard to make friends in universities, especially the ones like Melbourne Uni where most of the students don’t live in campus. Several weeks ago when I talked with one of my close friend he mentioned:” University is such a hard place to make friends. “ One of our lecturers also confessed she failed to make any friend during her first year. Both of them are Caucasians born in Melbourne! You may never have a chance to see people you make friends with in your class once the semester comes to an end. Since most of the Chinese students travel overseas for their graduate or undergraduate degree only, I would certainly imagine that’s an impact factor. 

 

As for the preference for STEM (TE is more appropriate, I’m in pure science and I don’t have many Chinese classmates), I don’t think political factor is the only reason. I have no intention to speak for Chinese government, because it sucks. But there is a tendency for people to exaggerate the impact of Communist Party on everything. As what has been mentioned above, technocracy practiced in western countries provides a market for people majoring in arts and humanities, which I regard as a good thing. Being a solicitor is also a very good choice, which is not the case in China. My point is, arts and humanities may not necessarily be a less economical option in the west.  

[lips]

13 hours ago, Zbigniew said:

in China the reputation of the humanities as an academic discipline has been in noticeable decline over the last thirty years

 

 

13 hours ago, Zbigniew said:

he political factors can be summarized by saying that, since the humanities encompass disciplines that are not only founded on free inquiry and free expression, but regard every aspect of human behaviour as legitimate material for scrutiny, the humanities are not the kind of discipline that a one-party state intent on minimizing political dissent is likely to want to encourage the study of.

Any support for this, especially from non-Western sources?