Old scroll.

[Aceofface]

Can anyone help with the translation of this and the artist?  Also, any recommendations on a book or website for translating old scrolls, bronzes, pottery, etc?  I bet soon there will be something like "face recognition" software that all you have to do is take a picture of the characters and it will automatically translate. Thanks.

[skylee]

It says -

 

"別有天地非人間

光緒二十八年 孫文"

 

別有天地 - place of unique beauty; scenery of exceptional charm; like another world

 

非 - not

 

人間 - human world, this world

 

光緒二十八年 - the 28th year of the Guangxu period (1902)

 

孫文 - Sun Yat Sin

 

PS - The seven characters in the middle are a verse from a poem of the famous Tang Dynasty poet Li Bai.

 

PPS - It looks like the red seal reads "孫文印信“ (Sun Yat Sin's seal), in the following order -

31

42

 

[Lu]

4 hours ago, Aceofface said:

I bet soon there will be something like "face recognition" software that all you have to do is take a picture of the characters and it will automatically translate.

This already exists (Google Translate can do it, I think) but it won't tell you much useful information about the content of old scrolls. Classical Chinese is not something a machine can translate, and what you really need is more information on what it says. GT won't tell you that something is a verse from a poem, for example.

[lips]

The character "孫" on the scroll does not look like the one common written by Dr. Sun Yat Sin as part of his name.

[Shelley]

9 hours ago, Aceofface said:

I bet soon there will be something like "face recognition" software

Pleco does this as does other apps. But as @Lu says that is not all there is to understanding what it means.

[lips]

And this is the translation from Google Translate:

 

Do not have heaven and earth

 

[Aceofface]

Thanks everyone.  You're all so helpful.  How the heck do you read this?  Ha.  So I guess it's possible that it's one of his works.  I was thinking that it was much older, as it is real dark, cracked and fragile.  Here's a larger pic of the seal.

[陳德聰]

Looks like skylee's eye was right.

 

PS. I am pretty sure we call him Sun Yat-Sen in English.

[skylee]

“I am pretty sure we call him Sun Yat-Sen in English.”

 

I think you are right.

[Aceofface]

Are you all playing a gag on me?  Truthfully.  Tell me it's not so.  Or did I just find something really valuable?

[Shelley]

Why do you think it might be valuable?

[Mat]

There are a lot of calligraphy scrolls around on ebay and even on alienexpress, all signed Sun Yat-Sen, maybe too many? I would have this checked by some expert...

[lips]

This is a couple of pictures of his calligraphy:

You can see that the character 孫, especially the part on the left, is different from that on the scroll.

[Lu]

It says 孙文, which is Sun Yat-sen's name, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's written by Sun Yat-sen. For one thing, 孙文 is hardly an uncommon name; and for another, more important thing, fakes exist.

 

How did you come by this scroll? If, for example, your grandfather was a comrade of Sun Yat-sen, it might be real, who knows. But if you don't have a reason to think it might be by Sun, I'd assume it's just a pretty scroll.

[Aceofface]

I guess I have a little bit of a "mystery" here.  Authentication  of art is dubious at best and can easily be swayed by ones person bias........ money, aliances, etc.  Provenance is a weak argument for those who lack the technical sophistication to properly access any given piece of art.  Artists all have their own "slant" as to how then do their art.  You are all familiar with how your handwriting differs from those around you.  This should, all on it's own, be able to be authenticated, or disqualified based on this by an expert with calligraphy and handwriting, in my opinion.  Interesting....... I just got a reply back from the Sen museum in Hong Kong and they said that they don't authenticate, but to seek out auction houses and museums near me for that.   OMG!   Aren't they a real museum then?  And his museum?  Obviously lacking important credentials. 

[roddy]

More likely tired of having to tell people they have an obvious fake. Don't get over-excited. Now, where'd you get the scroll?

[lips]

18 minutes ago, Aceofface said:

Obviously lacking important credentials

Why "obvious"?

[roddy]

Hang on, 光緒二十八年 - bit imperial, no? Wouldn't he have been a 1902 man?

[Lu]

Of course provenance isn't everything, but if, for instance, you bought this at Liulichang in a shop with a basement full of Tang ceramics, you don't need an expert to tell you it's fake.

 

(I recommend a visit to the Liulichang shops with basements full of Tang ceramics, by the way. They're like a free museum where you can buy the things on display if you feel so inclined. An expert would easily see the difference, but not someone like me who mostly just loves to look at pretty things.)

[Aceofface]

Roddy.   I hunt around for unique, compelling art items.  Bought in the USA.  Have others too.  I have been up against the "authentication" issue many times.  It's important in that if an auction house sells something that is later proved to be a fake, they are responsible for the financial damage to the buyer.

 

Lu.   Maybe they have the credentials, I just approached them on the wrong day.   Since this just happened, I will bet that they will contemplate my inquiry and get back later.