Most commonly understood Chinese translation for Pak choi / bok choy

[Christa]

Hi everyone,

 

This is my first post and it is regarding something that is driving me mad.

 

Pak choi / bok choy seems to have a variety of names in Mandarin. This has been discussed to some degree on the forum but never in a way that has left me feeling particularly clear regarding what the most widely used / understood translation would be. Just in case anyone is unclear, here are two varieties of the vegetable I'm talking about:

 

 

 

 

I have heard it called 白菜 / bái cài.

I have heard it called  青菜 / qīng cài.

I have heard it called  青江菜 / qīng jiāng cài.

I have heard it called 上海白菜 / Shànghǎi báicài.

 

This is driving me insane. Please can anyone tell me:

 

1. Are these terms all referring to the same thing or is there an issue with varieties or something that is affecting the translation?

2. Assuming that they are all referring to pak choi / bak choy, which is the most commonly used / understood?

3. If the usage is regional, would it be reasonable to say that: 白菜 / bái cài is used in the south;  青江菜 / qīng jiāng cài is used in Taiwan and on the east coast around Shanghai and 青菜 / qīng cài is used in the north? As for 上海白菜 / Shànghǎi báicài, I don't know where that's used. Does anyone here?

 

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated, as it's driving me completely nuts!

 

Thanks,

 

Christina

[Zbigniew]

That's a good question, Christina, and one I've pondered myself.

Three DongBei ren I've just asked all refer to both types you've shown as just 白菜.

 

The problem I have (it's not yet definitively resolved) is how to distinguish this from the round, common-or-garden varieties of cabbage typically encountered in the UK, which the Chinese people I know also seem to unanimously refer to as 白菜. My ad hoc solution is 中国白菜 for your type and just 白菜 for the UK type.

[陳德聰]

 

I must be honest, I laughed out loud when I saw the two pictures you posted because I missed the part where you said "two varieties" and to me those are two completely different vegetables.

 

10 hours ago, Christa said:

1. Are these terms all referring to the same thing or is there an issue with varieties or something that is affecting the translation?

2. Assuming that they are all referring to pak choi / bak choy, which is the most commonly used / understood?

3. If the usage is regional, would it be reasonable to say that: 白菜 / bái cài is used in the south;  青江菜 / qīng jiāng cài is used in Taiwan and on the east coast around Shanghai and 青菜 / qīng cài is used in the north? As for 上海白菜 / Shànghǎi báicài, I don't know where that's used. Does anyone here?

 

1. Some of those terms are referring to the same thing, some of them are not. 上海白菜 and 青江菜 refer to the same vegetable. Whether or not they are also referring to the same vegetable as 青菜 and 白菜 will depend on where you are and who you ask. For example, 上海白菜/青江菜, 白菜 and 青菜 are all different things to me.

 

2. See above. If you are referring to the little greener-stemmed ones or the "baby" ones, I personally feel you can get the most mileage by calling them 上海白菜. If you are trying to refer to the white-stemmed ones you pictured, I would say there is much more variation.

 

3. I was just at the supermarket and I took a bunch of pictures because this subject amuses me to no end. I live in Western Canada and I was shopping in TNT in a mostly Mandarin-speaking area:

 

Figure 1.

 

White-stemmed lil baby ones labelled: 白菜苗 (I call these 小白菜 haha even though I may not be understood by everyone always)

Green-stemmed lil baby ones labelled: 上海菜苗 (I guess I'd call these 上海小白菜 or "小的上海白菜")

 

Figure 2.

 

White-stemmed ones labelled: 奶油白菜 (I literally just call these 白菜)

Green-stemmed ones labelled: 上海白菜 (I call them 上海白菜)

 

The way these things are called will be heavily influenced by Cantonese here. From what I understand, I will get some variation of what I call 大白菜 or 紹菜 if I order "白菜" in Northern China.

 

To me 青菜 is just any green vegetable haha.

 

There. Clear as mud.

 

Also just for kicks:

[dwq]

4 hours ago, Zbigniew said:

The problem I have (it's not yet definitively resolved) is how to distinguish this from the round, common-or-garden varieties of cabbage typically encountered in the UK, which the Chinese people I know also seem to unanimously refer to as 白菜.

 

They are called 椰菜 in Hong Kong.  I think 捲心菜 should be unambiguous in the north.

[abcdefg]

The small ones in your second picture are usually called 小白菜 here in Kunming. These are most often about the length of my outstretched hand. I usually cut them in quarters the long way when cooking them.

 

 

I would add, without intending to be dismissive, that this sort of project is a losing battle. So many names exist for the same thing, even in one place, let alone names for things that are very similar but not identical. And then the whole issue of regional variations throws another variable into the mix. 

 

老陈's explanation nails it. (My internet is feeble today, and I cannot enlarge the pictures.)

[Christa]

I must admit, I have also laughed out loud while reading the replies - while also banging my head on my desk and weeping. Thank you so much for what you've written though.

 

Okay, let's try this from a somewhat different angle. Let's just try one variety.

 

What would you each call the vegetable below in both English and Chinese? So, no other varieties, just the exact one below. How would you name it in English and Chinese?

 

[陳德聰]

Your determination is a good thing but it will bring you much suffering.

 

I call that "bok choy" and 白菜. If someone thought I was referring to napa cabbage while speaking Mandarin I'd probably call it 奶白菜 (white stems, after all). But that's just me. West Coast (of Canada) Cantonese-influenced Mandarin.

[Christa]

 

3 hours ago, 陳德聰 said:

 

Your determination is a good thing but it will bring you much suffering.

 

 

I like you 陳德聰, you're like a Chinese-vegetable-focussed Yoda.

 

I can see you're right but I must continue this journey of mine - no matter the cost...

 

Okay, so I have some suggestions for that one. 

 

How about this next - what would you call the following vegetable in English and Chinese?

 

[vellocet]

I once went through the same thing trying to locate this delicious vegetable in America.  It's one of my favorites.  I too had had it heard it as 青菜, a hopelessly generic term.  It means different vegetables in different places.

 

Bok choy is a big head of lettuce looking thing. More like a head of cabbage.  What you've got in the photo is known as baby bok choy.  It took me a long time to figure this out.  Enjoy!

[Christa]

Hi Vellocet,

 

Thanks for your response but sure the big head of lettuce looking thing is Chinese leaf aka Chinese cabbage aka napa cabbage.

 

Bok choy and pak choi are surely these smaller vegetables pictured above.

 

As for baby bok choy / pak choi, surely that is refers to the same vegetables pictured above but when they are not fully grown.

 

I am more than happy to be corrected on any of this of course...

[Christa]

Sorry, above post should read:

 

Hi Vellocet,

 

Thanks for your response but surely the big head of lettuce looking thing is Chinese leaf aka Chinese cabbage aka napa cabbage?

 

Bok choy and pak choi are surely these smaller vegetables pictured above, aren't they?

 

As for baby bok choy / pak choi, surely that refers to the same vegetables pictured above but when they are not fully grown.

 

I am more than happy to be corrected on any of this of course...

[abcdefg]

9 hours ago, 陳德聰 said:

Your determination is a good thing but it will bring you much suffering.

 

I would like to write that on a small slip of paper and enclose it in a fortune cookie. Truer words were never spoken!

[Uncle Belly]

In general, the first picture in the north is called 大白菜Big Chinese cabbage, and the second picture is called 小白菜Little Chinese cabbage.

 

In the south, the first picture is called 白菜Chinese cabbage, and the second picture is called 青菜green vegetables

[abcdefg]

19 hours ago, Christa said:

Okay, let's try this from a somewhat different angle. Let's just try one variety.

 

When it has lots of white stem, such as in your picture, most of the vendors in the market here (Kunming) call it 奶白菜。 (I have no idea of its various English names.)

 

https://baike.baidu.com/item/奶白菜/4171499?fr=aladdin

 

 

 

 

 

But you can buy this or any other of the many varieties easily enough by just asking for 白菜。You will be offered a selection, you will be offered options.

 

When I went to the wet market this morning I asked vendors the names of several varieties of cabbage. I got an assortment of non-dictionary names. One lady called her cabbage 农白菜 ("farm cabbage") while the seller in the next stall called the same vegetable 山白菜 ("mountain cabbage".) In the next aisle I found someone calling it 村白菜 ("village cabbage.")

 

Here are some others that I saw this morning. You can read some of the descriptive names the sellers gave them. For example, one sign says 优惠白菜 ("favored cabbage.")

 

   

 

 

 

 

 

These (to the left) are the ones I mentioned in an earlier post, above, about the size of my outstretched hand, that are usually called 小白菜 ("small cabbage.") But the guy selling them laughed when I tried to confirm the name and told me his were 娃娃白菜 ("baby cabbage.")

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The picture above right shows 苦菜 beside 白菜 just for contrast.

 

This whole business of taxonomy and bilingual nomenclature of various vegetables is something I find difficult to take too seriously. The most productive method to sort them out would be to use the Latin scientific name if the task really had to be done carefully. My personal opinion is that it is prudent to chose one's battles; and this is not one that really needs to be fought.

 

 

[imron]

In Northern China there's also 油菜.  I'm not sure what if any relation it has to any of the varieties above.

[lips]

And then there is 淡莱。

[Christa]

Thank you so much everyone. The effort you have gone to is overwhelming. Particularly abcdefg and 陳德聰 for going to the trouble of taking pictures. Thank you.

 

Anyway, I have learnt the error of my ways as a result of this and now kneel humbly at your collective feet. Where I once worried there were four names for Pak Choi / Bok Choy, I now see that there may in fact be many, many more.

 

Never were wiser words spoken than these "Your determination is a good thing but it will bring you much suffering."

 

Still, stubborn and sick as I am, I want to make one last attempt to look at this from a slightly different angle. Let's say that I don't particular care whether I get this:

 

 

Or this:

 

 

 

Broadly speaking, I think both would be called pak choi / bok choy in English, even though they are not the exactly the same vegetable.

 

So do you think it would it be possible to get travel across China with perhaps just two terms to describe this type of vegetable collectively so that, when you ordered in a restaurant for instance, you would get some form of this type of vegetable rather than something like a napa cabbage. So, I would want to be served what in English would be called pak choi / bok choy but I don't care which "variety". For instance, could I say 白菜 / bái cài in the south and 青江菜 / qīng jiāng cài in the North and always get something like one of the above? Or would I still need more terms than that?

 

Or should I use 奶白菜 / nǎi bái cài  instead of 青江菜 / qīng jiāng cài.

 

Thank you for your patience by the way. I think I may be developing vegetable related OCD...

[陳德聰]

I think you'd get the most mileage out of 奶白菜 and 上海白菜 but I have not been North much. So I can't really speak to how recognisable 上海白菜 is as a term. I think 奶白菜 is distinct enough that even if people don't use the term they can probably guess pretty accurately what you want.

[Christa]

Thank you so much, 陳德聰! I am going to follow your advice.

 

By the way, I just had some opinions given to me by 3 different Taiwanese friends, which have further muddied these very unclear waters.

 

For the green stemmed variety I posted pictures of, they all said: 青江菜 / qīng jiāng cài.

 

For the white stemmed variety I posted pictures of though, I got a different answer from each of them: 黑葉白菜 / hēi yè bái cài, 鵝白菜 / é bái cài and 矮腳白菜心 / ǎi jiǎo bái cài xīn.

 

Pak choi / bok choy is evil!

[abcdefg]

Well, @Christa -- I would suggest that this quest can best take the form of a pilgrimage across China, staying at a dozen Fawlty Towers Inns in different parts of the country, quizzing John Cleese and his counterpart innkeepers about the fine points of green leafy vegetables.

 

"Madam, I assure you this is qingcai, even though my dear departed Mom called it baicai, and Manuel, the waiter, knows it as Shanghai lettuce. It's very straight forward; don't be confused for a minute. Now please sit down and have some tea."