Bread, Cakes etc.

[Shelley]

Thanks roddy for prompting me to ask this question

 

I was asking if bread, cakes, etc as I know here them in the UK have been a part of Chinese cuisine in some form, before the 20th century and the arrival of western influences to the general population.

 

It came up as a result of this discussion here https://www.chinese-forums.com/forums/topic/54917-too-many-potatoes-土豆泥煎饼-mashed-potato-pancakes/?tab=comments#comment-423729

 

Does your experience of kitchens in China include ovens? Do you miss one, have you found a substitute?

 

 

 

 

[abcdefg]

On 9/12/2017 at 8:29 PM, Shelley said:

I was asking if bread, cakes, etc as I know here them in the UK have been a part of Chinese cuisine in some form, before the 20th century and the arrival of western influences to the general population.

 

I wasn't here before the 20th century, but If asked to give a short general answer to your question, I'd say "no," bread and cakes are not a major part of Chinese cuisine, even today. Then I would begin listing the many exceptions to that broad statement.

 

1. Parts of China, particularly west and northwest, have a well-developed tradition of flat breads baked on a griddle or baked inside high-temperature clay ovens. 烧饼 and similar.

2. Other parts of China, in fact most of China I'd say, have a well-developed tradition of steamed buns. These are the baozi 包子 and similar.

3. In many places one also finds soft, fluffy, and thick skillet-made egg pancakes. 蛋饼 and similar. Popular as a street breakfast item.

4. A myriad of large, thin pancakes exists, most sold after adding a stuffing or filling. Popular street vendor fare. 葱油饼 and similar.

 

The loaf breads that one now finds in supermarkets have a texture and flavor that are not the same as in the west. Often these tend to be sweet and the crumb is cake-like. Cakes are baked in the western style for sale to a "westernized" segment of the populace. Lots of trendy bake shops are on the streets, even in Kunming. Don't think I have ever seen traditional western pies here, such as Mom's apple pie, cherry pie, etc.

 

Might be different today in more cosmopolitan places like Beijing or Shanghai. Someone else will have to help with that.

 

[lips]

Lots of cakes here.

[dwq]

If you accept the legend that mooncakes were used to coordinate a rebellion during the Yuan dynasty (13th century?), then they existed back then. Whether they are baked like modern ones is a different question.

[Jim]

I think shaobing 烧饼 came in pretty early, was reading something saying the idea was picked up out of Persia back in the Tang.

[Michaelyus]

First thing to clear up: defining such dry-heat cooked dough-based goods.

Britain splits bread vs cake vs pastry vs biscuit, based on a combination of what goes into each dough and the crumb structure of the final product. Traditionally, in Britain all were based on wheat flour. However, classifications extend to other flours. 
 

Traditionally in China such dough-based goods were either 饼 or a 糕, based pretty much exclusively on the structure/texture. Plus a lot of 糕s are cooked in wet heat anyway (e.g. most 年糕). On the other hand 饼 often include with the shallow-fried and deep-fried (which in English would start moving into doughnut territory).

Thus there is no real tradition of "baking" as a whole school of culinary science and art (compare to the difference between that, the English school of "baking", and the different disciplines that are included under French "patisserie"). Added to that, the connection of 饼 to street food means that the oven has been something for the "professional" industry, whether that's a modern fan-assisted bakery oven or an old-school clay oven. I know that my aunt's small but modern flat in a city in the SE of China lacks a built-in oven, and genuinely has no interest in getting one. Compare that to the aspirational values espoused by the AGA of the post-war generation in middle-class Britain, and how pre-war tenements and social housing were retrofitted with gas systems including ovens in the 60s (? - not sure exactly which decade). 

 

The British range of breads and biscuits is considered by much of my family and family friends to be way too dry (and too 让人上火) for usual consumption. Even looking at the majority of 华裔 families living in London that I know, the one baked good that could act as the "daily bread" is not a white loaf, but a cheap sweet brioche bun. I would speculate that it's a combination of the texture (the much softer crumb) and the self-contained nature of the bun/包 concept that influences such a choice of breakfast. My immediate family does have a penchant for good croissants though. 

 

[889]

There's the pineapple bun, a staple of Hong Kong bakeries.

 

And of course the Macau egg tart.

[ChTTay]

The history part of the question is not something I’m sure of.

 

Unlike the above answers, Beijing has pretty much any kind of bread you want.

I’d also say, here at least, yes bread and cakes are part of a standard diet now.

 

Gone are the days of horrifically over sweet white bread and pastries doused in sweet, runny mayonnaise. You can still get these if you really want but it’s not like when I lived in a smaller city and they were the standard. 

 

There are bakeries all over the place and it’s not just “expat” bakeries that are churning out more familiar baked products. The Chinese bakeries (Weiduomei, Holliland)  are still quite “Chinese” but they’re getting better. They have wholewheat bread, French bread etc. The Korean chains (Tous Les Jous and Paris Baguette) do a wide range of pasties and bread. There are others popping up too. 

 

Expat bakeries do do rye bread, sour dour, various Italian or German breads, sliced bread, pastries, pizza bases, etc

 

Bakeries here always do a good trade. Beijing people seem to have fully embraced cakes and breads. I see old ladies buying sliced white bread with their groceries. It’s not just one age group or section of society either. Perhaps the more affluent go to these stand alone chain bakeries but the lowly supermarket increasingly has baked goods for sale. They’re also very popular. I see workman munching on supermarket bought bread and cakes fairly often too. 

 

 

[abcdefg]

11 hours ago, Michaelyus said:

The British range of breads and biscuits is considered by much of my family and family friends to be way too dry (and too 让人上火) for usual consumption.

 

Interesting comment! I hadn't thought of the TCM angle at all. 

 

A couple years ago I became friends with a Chinese teacher here in Kunming whose father was a retired pastry chef. He had worked many years in high-end hotel kitchens. Before that I hadn't even realized China had that specialty. Had several good meals at their home and took advantage of those occasions to talk to him about food. 

 

He said at work there was seldom if ever a need for actually baking loaf bread per se. He made lots of jiaozi 饺子, wonton 馄钝 and steamed breads such as baozi  包子 and mantou 馒头 and hua juan 花卷。Also made actual cakes 蛋糕 and some breakfast pastries that sounded pretty much like Danish.

 

3 hours ago, ChTTay said:

Beijing people seem to have fully embraced cakes and breads. I see old ladies buying sliced white bread with their groceries. It’s not just one age group or section of society either. Perhaps the more affluent go to these stand alone chain bakeries but the lowly supermarket increasingly has baked goods for sale. They’re also very popular. I see workman munching on supermarket bought bread and cakes fairly often too. 

 

But it seems like all this is changing, at least in the first-tier cities. To be honest, it might be changing here too more than I realized. Guess I need to investigate more.  We do have quite a few stand-alone shops as well as bread items for sale in Carrefour and WalMart. 

 

I buy a small loaf of excellent crusty French bread every week or two from the old guy who is mainly a purveyor of honey. He has a contract with a small Vietnamese baker who makes them old-style, such as one might find in a Hanoi "banh-mi" shop. At home I carefully toast a couple slices in a skillet and have it with imported cheese as a treat. 

[DavyJonesLocker]

i notice shelley you asked about Ovens. Actually they are appearing more and more in China. I'd say about half the people i know (20 - mid 40s age group) do include western style ovens in their kitchens if they get their apartment redone. In the main kitchen appliance shops in Beijing you will always see an oven section The are not usually the electric double ovens more like an under the counter single oven and separate gas hob that many have in uk. Western style front door loading washing machines are increasing more popular too.

 

Pastry shops are a mixed bag and they still really don't even match up to a standard Tescos / waitrose or any bakery section in the UK. ChTTay mentioned the main ones but often the bread is full of sugar or that butter cream  in the middle . Weiduomei is passable but with many pastries and especially cakes, they are made look elaborate by fancy designs and many choices of food colours and artificial flavours . They are a loooong way from a standard french patisserie or a German bakery. 

 

There is a demand for them, Wagas is popping up all over Beijing and it is a proper coffee shop/ light lunch type plate. Waga like most of the others in beijing was set up by foreigners.

 

As for the history, well pastries 小吃 do have a long history and a pretty famous one 稻香村 for example does pretty great ones to be honest. You will come across the name of this store when you study the NPCR vol 4 book I think as its was frequented a lot by 鲁迅 

[ChTTay]

The sliced bread from Paris bagette and Tous Les jous is just sliced bread. It’s not sweet or with added stuff.

 

TLJ also do good loaves. A brown one for a very affordable 8RMB and a really nice wholewheat one with raisins. Again, no cream or sugary taste. 

 

Most big supermarkets in Beijing these days stock a decent wholewheat sliced bread and some kind of french baguette. 

 

Yeah, Wagas is essentially a cafe that does some pastries and cake by the slice. The menu is some pasta, salad, sandwiches, a few curries and lots of coffee/smoothies. It’s owned by the same people behind Baker & Spice. But I don’t see how this fits in to this thread about baked goods/bakeries?! 

 

The situation has changed a lot in the 6 years i’ve Been here. 

[DavyJonesLocker]

33 minutes ago, ChTTay said:

It’s owned by the same people behind Baker & Spice. But I don’t see how this fits in to this thread about baked goods/bakeries?! 

 

Well, more to show that the demand is growing for western style baked goods and western style cafes in Beijing at least. Wagas is full everyday even though the it's pretty expensive.

 

 

 

[ChTTay]

I guess. There are so so many cafes in Beijing now.

 

Agree baked stuff is in demand. I almost feel like it’s gone too far that way now. I see kids just munching out in sweet baked goods these days. Breakfast lunch or dinner there’s usually kids in these bakeries eating big slices of cake to themselves. Parents at my school buy huge amounts of pasteries and stuff for “dinner” to eat with the kids.