Grammar doubts on '把', '微', '地'

[sunwukong88]

Hello there,
My name is Andrea and this is my first post on this forum. The query is the following:

 

第一道茶是“苦茶”，是把云南沱茶放进沙罐里，然后放在火上烤，等到茶叶变成微黄色的时候,才倒进适量的开水，只听“轰”地一声，茶便泡好了。

 

This sentence comes from a text you should be able to find at the following link: 
http://www.podcastchart.com/podcasts/learn-chinese-culture-imandarinpod-com/episodes/-4fc0a0ac-f973-42ec-a59a-171931888f70

There are some parts of this sentence that are not too clear to me, gramatically-wise.

 

First of all I would translate the sentence as it follows:
"The first tea is known as 'Ku Cha' (Bitter tea), and is made from placing Yunnan tea leaves in a clay pot and afterwards on the fire to bake. By the time the tea leaves have slightly changed their color, only then the right amount of boiled water can be poured into the pot. When the sound 'hong' is heard, then the tea is ready."

 

I know that my translation does not make much sense, since tea does not make any noise as far as I know xD. So, you would be so kind to provide me with a more appropriate translation, I would really appreciate that. With regards to the grammar bits I would like to know the following:

 

1. 把云南沱茶放进沙罐里: in this case, is '把' used only to highlight the topic?

2.  等到茶叶变成微黄色的时候: in this case, is '微' used as an adverb? For what I understand from the context, the sentence is talking about a 'slight change in color' but it confuses me the fact that neither '得' nor '地' are used in this sentence. Unless 'wei' here is not actually an adverb. 

3. 只听“轰”地一声: in this case, I am confused by the presence of '地'. As far as I know this character is mainly used as an adverbial modifier. I believe that '地' should be replaced by '的' to actually make some sense, but I may be completely wrong.

 

Sorry for all these questions, but I need to be inquisitive if I really want to improve my level of Chinese. I hope you understand where I am coming from. Also this is my first post and I hope that the tone of the conversation is appropriate. Thank you in advance to take the time to read and answer this for me. Cheers!

[Publius]

Hi, welcome to the forums.

 

1) I don't know if you have covered the 把字句 construction in your study. Chinese Grammar Wiki has an excellent explanation of why its use is grammatically necessary.

 

2) 微黄 is 'slightly yellow', so I'd say 微 is a degree adverb like 很 'very', 有些 'somewhat'. Not all adverbs need a 得 or 地. They are only used when a (multisyllabic) adjective is turned into an adverb to modify a verb.

 

3) I don't know how to explain it, but my impression is that 地 is quite common if not the preferred choice in this case (involving a 象声词).

[陳德聰]

17 hours ago, Publius said:

3) I don't know how to explain it, but my impression is that 地 is quite common if not the preferred choice in this case (involving a 象声词).

I have always understood using 地 here to be "incorrect", but "irregardless" it persists because it doesn't actually matter.

 

Logically speaking, it should only make sense if 一聲 is a 謂語, and I have always understood that the sound is the sound, not the way the sound sounds.

[somethingfunny]

It might be helpful to think of 微黄 as a distinct colour in itself, rather than a modified colour.  As in, 'the colour slightly yellow' rather than 'a slightly yellow colour'.

[happy_hyaena]

On a side-note, I strongly recommend you to take some time to focus on learning how to use 把, as well as 被 if you haven't already. In my mind, mastering how to use them was, in retrospect, a big milestone in my Chinese. Knowing them allows you to rearrange your sentences to put light on what you want to emphasise, maybe omit things you want to be omitted, to express relationships between persons/objects, and more, making your communication both clearer, nuanced and concise.

[sunwukong88]

Thanks a lot guys. Sorry if I reply only right now but I have been busy recently. I agree with you about the first two answers. 把 is used to highlight the topic of the sentence and it is placed before the main verb. Regarding 微 it makes more sense if it is a adjective indeed. Usually adverbs in Chinese come before the verb they refer to (of course it is different when using 得), therefore this wei in this case seems to be an adjective that together with 黄色 could be translated as 'yellowish'. As for the last question, I was looking at this video on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfF8AXT2j0 and, Publius, you seem to be correct. I had no idea that 地 was used with an onomatopoeia. Thanks!!!

[somethingfunny]

I kind of feel like I should watch the first 148 lessons before diving right in at number 149.

 

I'm still not convinced, it seems that both 地 and 的 can be used with 象声词 and my gut tells me that 的 would be more appropriate here.

 

Also, is there any particular reason in that lesson why she pronounces 地 "di", rather than "de"?  Am I to assume that when using 地 with 象声词 is should generally be this case?

[sunwukong88]

Usually, when an Onomatopoeia is used as an adverb, the particle 地 is used in the sentence.

 

老人哈哈地笑了。 
The old man laughs.

 

It actually makes sense since the 地 is needed to describe how a verb is performed. I think that I was lost in translation and looking at the issue from a different point of view. I mean, I would never traslate that phrase as *The old man laughs hahaly/in a haha way xD. Probably in Chinese anything that describes how a certain verb is performed needs to be an adverb and behave like one (that would be using 地 or 得 with adjectives, onomatopoeia and so forth and being placed in the right position in the sentence structure, usually before the verb, except when using the 得 structure). 

 

About the pronunciation of 地, I am not sure why she pronounces it 'di' instead of 'de'. This character does have two pronunciations indeed but in this case it should be 'de' afaik.

 

Also you may be able to use 的 instead of 地 when your onomatopoeia behaves like and adjective and is placed before a noun and not a verb:

 

Onomatopoeia (Adj) + 的 + Noun

Onomatopoeia (Adv) + 地 + Verb

 

Obviously take what I am saying with a pinch of salt, since I am the one with all these doubts hehe. Anyway thanks to your brainstorming I could see a pattern and it seems to make sense now. Again, I am not sure if this is correct so if you have a different opinion or you know that what I am saying is actually wrong, do not hesitate to correct me. Thanks

 

Here also says that an onomatopoeia goes usually with 地.
https://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/grammar/Structural_particle

[roddy]

The de / di thing has come up before - it's a Southern thing. Or a kid thing. Or a Li Peng thing. We're not sure. But it's a thing. 

[somethingfunny]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the sentence 只听“轰”地一声, the word 轰 is an adjective describing the  一声.  Therefore, shouldn't it be 的?

 

The way I always remember this is like so:

 

他开车怎么样?

他开得快。

Here we have verb followed by adverb, so it's 得.

 

他走路怎么样？

他慢慢地走。

Here we have verb preceded by adverb, so it's 地.

 

你听到了什么？

听到了轰的一声。

Here we have an adjective describing the nature of the sound, so it's 的.

 

So, just to be clear, my question is this: In the sentence 只听“轰”地一声, is 轰 an adjective or an adverb? 

[sunwukong88]

Somethingfunny you are right sorry... Yi sheng, here, is a noun. Then my question is the same as yours hehe. 

[Publius]

You are absolutely right, somethingfunny.

的、地、得 are used to mark 定語、狀語、補語 respectively.

The problem is the distinction becomes fuzzy when a sound is involved.

只聽"咣當"一聲響, is 咣當 an adjectival phrase or adverbial phrase? I can argue 咣當 is the manner of 響, and since 只聽一聲“咣當”響 doesn't feel like good Chinese, 咣當 has to precede 一聲.

Now substitute 咣當 with 轟. It's monosyllabic. Another syllable is needed to make the sentence idiomatic. 只聽"轟"地一聲響 is quite understandable, right?

Even after we drop the verb 響, the perception remains that 轟 is an adverb of manner.

Moreover, 只聽“轟”地一聲 is used adverbially (accompanying state), quite different from 聽到了“轟”的一聲. I guess that's why many native speakers choose 地 in this sentence.

But as 陳德聰 said, it doesn't really matter. 的 evolved from 地 after all. The distinction wasn't established until well into the 20th century. We should just be glad that 底 fell out of use...

[sunwukong88]

That makes sense. Thanks for all your help guys!