Are you aware of the 8105 simplified Chinese characters of the PRC?

[edelweis]

How much time per day do you spend studying Chinese?

[gwr71]

3-4 hours per day. 4-5 days a week. last week I had other things to do so I only had 1 day

[imron]

The chinese government defines 2,000 characters as the minimum standard of literacy for urban residents and 1,500 for people from rural areas.

 

Note, this is for native speakers.  People learning Chinese as a second language will need significantly more to make up for a lack of vocabulary (which a native speaker will already know how to say, just not read/write) and lack of ability to fill in gaps (which a native speaker can do more easily based on existing knowledge of the language).

[gwr71]

Dear Imron,

I agree.  The native speaker is already fluent in listening and speaking Mandarin and only needs that minimum amount of characters to be fluent in reading and writing.  

For all others, they have to learn all the words, phrases, measure words, verbs and grammer to even come close.  That is why I don't agree with limiting myself to 3,500-4,000 characters.  

In this forum I was corrected by OneEye who studied in Taiwan.  There is a list of 8,000 words for TOEFL. I had thought it was 8,000 characters.  I have a copy from a student in Taiwan studying today from my village in Nevis. I thought that this was the ultimate list and once I learned it I would be fluent.  Again I was wrong.  

However, when I looked at Longman's Visual Dictionary of Chinese Culture (1999) I got a true picture.  This Dictionary covers practically all the nouns of Chinese daily life (at 1999).  The result is that all native Chinese speakers in PRC would know all or almost all of these nouns.  They may not used them as frequently as other nouns but they know them and will use them when it is appropriate. Then this 12,380+plus nouns are essential if you want to say that you can speak Mandarin as good as a native or a close copy.

Also look at the everyday verbs, there are books with about 301 verbs of everyday uses.  I chose 201 verbs for everyday uses and the author admits that it should be called 2,001 verbs not to mention the tons of phrases.

Measure word dictionary authors state that they included at least 150 measure words with lots of nouns as examples.

All the above are for daily use in PRC.

That is why it is not crazy to learn up to 8,000 characters.  Is it necessary to learn beyond the 6,000 amount? I will find out.  It is my journey to do so and as long as I have life and liberty and free internet connection I will do so.

 

[edelweis]

It seems you are studying quite seriously.
Besides copying the stuff from your books, what are your other study methods?
For instance: Do you use SRS? Do you do grammar exercises? Essays? Do you get your writing (characters and sentences or essays) corrected by someone?
How do you ensure that you don't forget the words you have learned ? Do you spend some time on reviews besides learning new stuff? Do you test yourself?

[gwr71]

Dear Edelweis,

At the pace that I am going character recognition may be a concern.  I write out the characters both in Traditional and Simplified by hand.  Then next step is to write them in the computer using the font in my laptop, which writes both in T and S.  I have started to do a review of individual characters for each unit in Longman's..  I then do writing practice of each individual characters.  

At this stage I do not write out sentences nor do grammer exercises.  The reason is that the grammer book I am using does not have characters and exercises.  When I have finished my learning of this grammer book, I will then get a new grammer book which has been recommended by persons in this forum in another thread "Modern Mandarin Chinese Grammer" 2nd edition and it's workbook. The reason for  this is as a newbie I would more concerntrate on the characters and pinyin rather than the learning of grammer itself.  In this way I can concerntrate for now on just learning grammer and when I am comfortable with the knowledge of grammer then I will use the other book and it's workbook.  

I am not ready to write out sentences etc.  that will come much later in my plan.  I can do so right now but this will only lead me to a false sense of confidence.  This half of my plan is to concerntrate on learning mandarin and the next stage is writing and then the last stage is listening and speaking.  I must build a good foundation before I move on to the next stage.

[OneEye]

1 hour ago, gwr71 said:

This half of my plan is to concerntrate on learning mandarin and the next stage is writing and then the last stage is listening and speaking.

 

Well, that's completely backwards, but I doubt I'll be able to convince you of that given how certain you are of your strategy.

 

Look, I went to graduate school in Taiwan. In the Chinese Department, researching the history and evolution of the language and writing system. All in Chinese, of course; I was one of only 4 foreigners in a department of hundreds. All my papers were written in Chinese, all the books I read were in Chinese, all the lectures I attended were in Chinese. I also worked as a Chinese to English translator for two years. I've read novels and watched movies in Chinese. I led a classical Chinese reading group for over two years in Taipei. My bookshelves are filled with academic and popular books written in Chinese about Chinese writing, language, history, philosophy, archeology, and culture. I did research on excavated bamboo texts from the Warring States period and on ancient character morphology (文字形體學).

 

I know about 3500 characters. Maybe 4000 at a stretch, when my Chinese was at its best. You don't need 8000 characters. But you'll figure that out eventually, if you don't burn out first.

[gwr71]

Dear OneEye,

I thank you for your insight but as you can guess I am committed to my path and I will not burn out.  I still don't agree with limiting myself to 3,500 to 4,000 characters.  When I have completed my path I will post my findings here in this forum.  

[Flickserve]

On 07/12/2017 at 5:26 AM, gwr71 said:

 

?No.  You have to learn the first half before you start the second half.  Then as you practice listening you will eventually recognize all.  As you know listening is very difficult and you must spend a lot of time on this area before you can be comfortable with Mandarin.

 

Was this the same strategy as you learning Spanish?

 

Having learnt Chinese Cantonese, I have to disagree with your first part of learning strategy. Some knowledge of the written form characters is helpful but other listening and speaking need to be worked even more so to gain fluency so you might as well start on that now. 

 

I see many HK people brought up using Chinese and English in Hong Kong education system. Generally, they are strong in reading, weaker in writing, difficulty in listening and no confidence with poor ability in speaking. That's because it intuitively is easier to read and write than speak and listen with another person. Despite having a large vocabulary range, they are still uncomfortable speaking English.

 

 

 

Would that be your definition of fluency?

 

 

[edelweis]

Thanks for the reply.

I think least one other member of these forums started by learning some amount of characters in a specialized school, but it was for a limited time (2-3 months?) and a limited amount of characters (don't recall exactly, maybe 500 to 1500?).

And there are a number of people who learn characters using "Remembering the Hanzi" and/or Skritter etc, in addition to using a textbook.

But, I don't recall anyone attempting to learn a really huge amount of characters first thing.

 

3 hours ago, gwr71 said:

When I have completed my path I will post my findings here in this forum.

That's a long time from now though - at least two years just for the first part of it.

It might be worth keeping track of what you are doing now, like in a study blog.

(Of course, the drawback is that it exposes you to skepticism and or criticism,

but also maybe some helpful advice sometimes?)

 

Concretely, how many new characters and words do you learn per day?

Do you learn the pinyin and meaning also?

(when I say "learn the pinyin", I mean both learning how to spell the pronunciation and practice pronouncing the character without looking at the pinyin).

[evn108]

On 12/6/2017 at 7:50 AM, gwr71 said:

I pity those Chinese learning English.  Have you ever considered that English has 1,000,000 words.   Mandarin does not have half those numbers.

Is this the method you used to learn to read English?

[gwr71]

I thank you all for your comments and criticisms etc. but at the end of the day I made a decision on how I am going to become fluent in Mandarin.

 

 Learning Mandarin the normal way is like  a proverbial Slow boat to China with a Chinese Junk.  However, with my method I have attached at least 4 Yamaha engines to that Junk  and travelling at 40 knots  per hour to get to China.  I appreciate my Junk has many holes and seeping a lot of water and could eventually sink without reaching my goal.  But I have decided to continue in my own way. I will take that chance.

 

My method is for me only and it works. It may be foreign to you compared to how you learnt Mandarin.  I have taken the less popular road that 3,500 to 4,000 characters is still  not enough for fluency.  6,500 may be more accurate.  Whether 8,000 is applicable remains to be seen.  I will make my finding know within a 2 year period.

 

Right now I have written out 22 units from Longman's Visual Dictionary of Chinese Culture in both Traditional and Simplified. I have written out 739 nouns/words and by the following week I will cross 1,000 nouns/words.  I take my time every week to write and sometimes I can only do 1 day only but I will get there.  

 

Again I thank you all for your comments and criticisms.  That is what this forum is for. Sometimes we must shake up things and cause others to think outside the norms.  to re-examine our own preconceived notions of how persons should learn Mandarin, our methodology and our motives for learning it.  We must appreciate each other ways in reaching fluency even though you may feel very strongly on your method,does not mean my method is wrong, just different.

 

 

 

[roddy]

On 06/12/2017 at 9:26 PM, gwr71 said:

 I will rely on the cds/mp3s and websites, and youtube with movies, news etc in Mandarin to assist.  There is really no substitute for the real thing.  I don't have an online tutor so I can speak mandarin regularly.  I will have to go to Taiwan and then to HK and spend time there to practice all that I have learnt.  

That's what going to make you "fluent", if anything is. Time spent discussing that part of the process would be valuable. 

[艾墨本]

7 hours ago, gwr71 said:

My method is for me only and it works.

Chinese learning with gwr71 characteristics. I think you'll find a home with Chinese political culture.

 

7 hours ago, gwr71 said:

It may be foreign to you compared to how you learnt Mandarin.

I think you're confusing experience with knowledge. I do not just recommend people learn mandarin the way I did. I recommend them learn it how decades of research into Second Language Acquisition, Foreign Language Instruction, Education Psychology, and many other fields have found to be the most effective ways.

 

You're receiving recommendations against your described path not because it is new but rather because it is old. As it seems you appreciate a good metaphor; it's as if you are saying you will definitely make it up the mountain once you finish meticulously carving your wheels from stone while the person next to you is offering a set of rubber ones and chains (just in case it snows) for free.

 

When you get to the top, maybe you can read the boundless research on this topic from the perspective of Chinese teachers and researchers. You could start with looking up 字本位 and 词本位 as it quite directly addresses "your" method.

[edelweis]

7 hours ago, gwr71 said:

My method is for me only and it works.

Understood.

(but I find this a little disappointing - when someone has a study method that works, I'd like to know all the details about it.)

 

[gwr71]

Dear Edelweis,

I will outline my method in full.

1. The basics: pinyin and characters.

The starting point of what I call my method (this is as pointed out old) is the learning of the Chinese equivalent to English ABC's. The Initials and Finals and Tones. One must master the reading and pronouncing of pin yin before moving on to characters.  One must be able to pronounce the 400 Mandarin syllables and the tones.  (Here I learned from www.yoyochinese.com).

Then one can proceed to characters:

a. learn the 8 strokes;

b. The stroke order; and

c. The 214 Chinese radicals ( both Traditional (T) and Simplified (S)).

 

Once the above is learnt then one is ready to move on to the next step.

 

2. Learning Mandarin from a series of Books (whether T or S):

One can choose T or S books depending on your preference.  St. Kitts and Nevis recognizes Taiwan and so naturally I turn to Taiwan for books.  However, one must recognize the growing importance of learning S.  Even in HK and Taiwan the S books are taking hold with the younger generation.  Thus one must face the reality of learning both T and S.  I have incorporated both in my method.

 

I then chose PAVC Book 1-5.  I then found NTNU MTC as the premier institution in Taiwan for learning Mandarin for Foreigners.  They have published a brochure with 9 levels.  I have attached the brochures for 2016-2017 and 2017-2018.

For persons studying S books I believe New Practical Chinese Reader is popular and Modern Chinese Books 1A, 1B , 2A and 2B seems to be used by colleges outside the PRC.

The 9 levels from MTC draws on quite a few books and I will go through all of them until Level 6.  There is a word list of 8,000 words used for Taiwan in doing the TOCFL.  

 

3.  I then introduced the following areas with specific books: Grammer, Verbs, Measure Words and Nouns.

So while learning the 9 levels of MTC I added these categories as aids to obtain a well rounded knowledge of Mandarin.

 

Now the point in (3) is not for Newbies.  This is for Intermediates; low to high.

 

I then selected for Grammer the book: Mandarin Chinese: A Functional Reference Grammer by Li and Thompson (1981). This book was recommended by the authors of A Course in Contemporary Chinese.  It is a linguistic book and it has no characters just pin yin.  It is very challenging for me but very rewarding.  when I am finished I will have a wholistic appreciation for Mandarin Grammer.  Then I will use a Modern Grammer Book and it's workbook.  By then I will be able to fully understand the whys in Mandarin and better able to do the exercises etc.  

 

In respect to Verbs, I chose : 201 Chinese Verbs-Compounds and Phrases for Everyday Use.  This book is in T and I convert everything to S also.  It has at least 2001 verbs and a lot of phrases.  There are other Verb books with lots more but I will start with this one.

 

In respect to Measure Words I use : Cheng and Tsui: Chinese Measure Word Dictionary.  I have the sample pack and I will buy the book as soon as I can allocate funds.  It has more than 150 measure words.

 

Lastly, Nouns.  This is where I use: Longman's Visual Dictionary of Chinese Culture (1999). It is in S but I translate to T also.  It has 308 Units but one Unit has been blanked because it has toy gun etc.. ( censorship).  There are 12,380 plus nouns/words.  I also use a modern Visual dictionary for the other nouns not in Longman's.

 

4. I have,with the encouragement of an Administrator in this forum to begin writing characters.  I then had to learn how to active the fonts in my laptop which is very old.  I learnt how from Youtube.  I am very thankful for that push as it has helped me a long way in obtaining my goal.  I can now write in Characters both T and S.  

 

5. After finishing the above, I must now concerntrate fully on listening and speaking.  To this end I will have to visit Taiwan/HK .  My Passport entitles me to visa free access to HK, Taiwan and Macau for up to 28 days.  I need a Visa to visit PRC.

MTC has annual short courses for Foreigners in the Summer.  It can range from 3 weeks to one semester.  I would like to be able to stay for 3 months but I don't know if my finance will allow me to.  The cost of living there for 3 months is the problem. If I can find proper accommodations that I can afford then I may consider staying for 3 months.  i would like that a lot. I believe from this experience I would be one step closer to my goal, fluency in Mandarin.  I don't expect to go to Taiwan and in 3 months speak like a native but I hope to make the most of the time there to greatly improve my tones etc..I may have to visit Taiwan repeatedly over the next few years to achieve my goal.  I am too old for scholarships and wished that I had better sense when i was younger.  The university where  I studied over 24 years ago Cave Hill campus, Barbados of The University of The West Indies (UWI) now has Confucius Institute there and students can do Mandarin Courses with their degrees.  They can also take HSK also.  I may do HSK 1-6 there.

 

In the meantime I use CDs/MP3s, websites and Youtube as my language lab.  On weekends it is Mandarin weekend. I watch only mandarin and sometime Cantonese movies. No English shows  except news.  I can recognize Cantonese from Mandarin now.  At first it was very difficult now it is easier.  I have just finished watch: Once Upon a Time in Shanghai.  Fantastic movie.  As soon as I post this I will be watching another movie.  

 

I hope that I have covered everything.

105-106-bulletin_(2016-2017)National_Taiwan_Normal_University.pdf

106-107-bulletin-en2017-2018_ntnu_mtc.pdf

[dtcamero]

i think my question is...

 

 how do do you know that writing out books longhand will help you learn chinese?

 

-maybe you're writing all these words out and just forgetting them again 2 minutes later...

 

-maybe you're writing the individual characters incorrectly (they can be quite complicated)

 

chinese children (who are already fluent) also write out characters a million times in school...

this is famously inefficient, and it takes them 10 years before they can read a newspaper.

but they live in china and speak the language.

if you are in nevis using the same method, then isn't it fair to say you'll need more than ten years just to learn how to read?

 

in this forum people have discovered several tools and techniques that are much more efficient, and many people here have become fluent in 3 - 4 years without living in china.

 

therefore, i think it is fair to say that the reason many here are puzzled by your posts is that they don't understand why you are so determined to study using this masochistic plan... and why you are so convinced it will work for you, even though you haven't started yet.

 

by all reason, you too do not know if it will work or not, either.

 

i applaud your confidence, but confidence without a basis in fact has gotten many people into trouble historically.

[edelweis]

Actually, when written out this way, the plan doesn't look all that different from what other people are doing:

studying textbooks and supplementing with vocabulary and grammar books.

 

As to the listening/speaking portion of it, anyone who is self-studying has to make do with mp3s and movies until they can get access to a teacher.

 

[dtcamero]

he's writing out all the chinese in around 10 textbooks longhand. 

 

without an srs 

without studying character composition

just copying... 

 

this is the issue

[Tomsima]

I just read a whole thread about writing things out as an effective way of learning. So maybe worth noting

 

*grammar

 

Quality, not quantity, is what makes the difference