Help with my learning approach

[emuboy]

Hi,

 

I actually had an old account I posted on here with but my old laptop died and I can't remember the account name or email address - the joys of having thousands of different email accounts ;).

 

I went on an exchange to Beijing in the middle of the year for a month after having learnt Chinese for ~8 months. My experience with my Chinese was terrible; I couldn't read menus, people were only able to understand basic sentences (like 'do you have...?') and it took me several minutes to process what people were saying to me. I was by myself for the first 10 days before the course started and I actively sought out interactions with the locals, I had a heap of fun just cruising around getting into my photography and attempting to chat with people. I'm going back to China in March next year as I was awarded a CSC scholarship - one of the 1 year language learning ones.

 

I'm getting a new laptop tomorrow and want to start studying again, I have 4 hours a day. Previously I used iTalki; I would get lessons however they would be conducted in a mix of English/Chinese, using a method similar to Flickserve I would take the recorded audio from the lessons and form flashcards for key phrases in Anki. In addition to this I would smash through 30-60 minutes of flashcards a day; once I finished my Anki deck I would work on Skritter, which had a range of different words that I had seen around and wanted to learn. I also tried to run through 1 Chinesepod lesson a day, I would listen to the audio over and over again and try and transcribe it until I began to understand what was being said. I don't think aspects of this approach have been effective for me for these reasons: (1) the iTalki lessons are expensive and I didn't get much speaking practice and cutting it up into flashcards took hours and hours to do properly, (2) I ended up knowing a lot of phrases that were only applicable to specific contexts, and which are difficult to draw upon in stressful situations (a similar case for the Skritter lists), (3) one of my mates from mainland had a look at the Chinesepod content and he thinks it is best as a resource only for Taiwan (this is probably true but I think the grammar structures and stuff would still be alright), (4) I ended up just memorising what was being said in the Chinesepod dialogues even though I was convinced I was actually understanding it - if I heard different iterations or variations on the sentences being spoken I would doubt I actually understood it at all.

 

I actually don't know what to do. I took a 3 month break after returning from China as to be honest I was quite disheartened, and also to focus on my last semester of uni + GAMSAT and I really want to get my Chinese up to a decent level before I get back over there next Feb. What are your thoughts on how I should attack my next few months? Is there an equivalent to Chinesepod based on northernish-style speaking?

[roddy]

Maybe look at PopupChinese, but I wouldn't worry too much about Chinesepod - if the worst thing people say about your Chinese is that you have a Taiwanese accent, you're doing great. And I suspect it's not that much of an issue anyway. Chinese people love to tell you nobody else speaks Chinese properly.

 

I'd get a textbook. Get the CDs. Work through it systematically for two hours, and spend the other two hours doing whatever you feel is necessary and fun. Watch kids cartoons, read a graded reader, do an online language exchange. Set yourself a goal of testing out of a level or two of Chinese when you get to China. 

 

Oh, and if you do remember your old account we can merge them.

[Lu]

I agree with Roddy, it's useful to get a textbook. And a teacher, if you can find one.

Doesn't Anki have decks with the audio already included? (I don't actually know whether it has, but it seems like something someone would have made and shared at some point.)

 

I'm surprised to hear that criticism of Chinesepod, I never knew that apparently they're not in Shanghai anymore. Anyway, I assume they make sure the podcasts are in standard Mandarin, which means you can certainly use it.

 

Good luck! If you study for four hours a day, you'll make good progress.

[roddy]

I had a look at some of the recent stuff they've posted on Youtube and it seems fine, to be honest. Personally I wouldn't use it as the constant giggling would make me tear my ears off, but presumably that's not as frequent in the actual lessons, as opposed to the "fun" social media marketing stuff.

 

Maybe also get a phrasebook with audio to use. A lot of the early stuff you need (getting around, buying stuff, meeting people) will be covered and it sounds like that was a bit traumatic last time round. 

[DavyJonesLocker]

1 hour ago, Lu said:

Doesn't Anki have decks with the audio already included? (I don't actually know whether it has, but it seems like something someone would have made and shared at some point.)

 

 

yes there are numerous decks available to download 

Furthermore you can installed the TTS addon which allows you to automatically create audio files. You can choose computer generated or human voice files

[Shelley]

It might be helpful to try HelloChinese, its an app for android or iOS. It has vocabulary that could be useful in everyday life and it covers speaking, listening, reading and writing with grammar explanations and many extras. The core app is free with some paid premium content, that although fun does not diminish the value of the free version.

 

Have a look here http://www.hellochinese.cc/

 

As for a textbook, I like New Practical Chinese Reader, there are several topics on these books at the moment on the forum. In my blog I have explained how I use NPCR and a short review. (see my signature for link)

 

[edelweis]

5 hours ago, DavyJonesLocker said:

you can installed the TTS addon which allows you to automatically create audio files

 

I don't think using Text-To-Speech for sentences in your target language is a good idea. The intonation is all wrong.

There are beginner level audio files on the internet such as zhongwenred (and green and blue) etc.

And a textbook with audio is very useful.

 

[DavyJonesLocker]

@edelweis

indeed, I should have been clearer. I was suggesting for single word memorisation in ANKI only. However if the audio is important in an SRS system then PLECO might be a better choice

[Flickserve]

18 hours ago, emuboy said:

 

I actually don't know what to do.

 

Sounds like you are doing OK. You study 8 months and find out real immersion is difficult. That is normal. I can imagine doing the same for French or Spanish would be easier but not for Chinese. 

 

You may want to analyse carefully which area you want to strengthen - listening skills, speaking skills or reading.

 

Listening skills, my experience is you need to put in a much greater proportion of time into this. I used Growing Up with Chinese, ripped the sound to MP3, carefully matched the subtitles to the sentence in workaudio book. The dialogue is by Beijing people so that gets you used to Beijing style of speaking. For instance 多少钱 was pronounced as 多儿钱. I experimented shadowing it, saying it in a conversation with a language partner living in Beijing and they said "wow, that sounds totally native" - alas, only happened for three words out of the whole conversation, Lol.  But overall, I found the exercise gave quite a large benefit. Haven't tried  Chinesepod. See https://www.chinese-forums.com/forums/topic/44952-workaudiobook-–-a-tool-for-listening-practice-and-subtitle-creation/

 

I did intend to do the same for Happy Chinese and Susan series but got lazy. That's Beijing accent and the script is on the Internet. We have a thread on it in Chinese forums. https://www.chinese-forums.com/forums/topic/51745-srt-subtitles-for-happy-chinese-with-susan/

 

There was another drama I had difficulty with listening to and people on this forum said the actor used a Beijing way of slurring words together and dropping words  which I found largely incomprehensible. It's ok, work on easier stuff first and go back to it later.

 

For your italki lessons, it sounds like your level was still quite low if they also used English. I notice that tutors tend to speak closer to standard mandarin during a session which is not a great thing if you drop into street style fast spoken and slurred Beijing mandarin. In fact, I found this quite a difficult problem to solve. Most teachers would revert closer to standard mandarin. So somehow, you have to convince a tutor or language partner to really speak the local accent,  you record the sentences and listen again.

 

Using anki to train listening skills didn't work  for me. For testing, it is fine but training is different. I found it much better to have sentences in an MP3 and just keep playing. You can start off with ten sentences and just keep auto repeating them. You can even shuffle the sentences.  Pick another ten for the next day and so on. Then go back and review the first batch. As you get used to the sentences,  you can increase the number of sentences to just above whatever you think you can handle.  You cannot do this type of  training with anki because of needing to press the button each time changing cards which slows you down. Listening to the mp3 is something you can do on the train, bus etc. 

 

There is also a type of file which you can include text with an mp3 so that it pops up karaoke style with the sound. I haven't investigated it much but it sounds like an avenue to explore. For example, listen to the mp3, can't comprehend a particular sentence, review, look at the screen for the words, shadow the sentence. Saves looking up the words. 

 

Reading menus - you have to get a real menu and learn how to read those particular words. Since the food and writing are different from your home country, you cannot expect to just drop in and workout what you want to order. Did you take any photos of menus from your previous trip? You can learn the words of selected dishes, perhaps writing the words out for reinforcement, and how to speak them in preparation for the next trip. Get a language partner friend to say the names of dishes into a MP3 recording for you. The other day, I found a new Taiwanese 饭店 and couldn't work out a lot of the menu. So I just asked the waitress for a recommendation and luckily, it turned out to be edible. At other food places in HK, I can actually read a lot of chinese menus. So don't worry too much about not being able to read menus.

 

 

Speaking. Drill the sentences that you want to say. It may take a couple of hundred attempts to say a sentence with the correct rhythym, intonation and tones. The only thing is, will you understand the replies thus it goes back to the listening skills. Hence the necessity for more time on listening practice. The previous suggestion of a phrase book is good. I assume that you are are continually working on pronunciation and tones. I prefer to work on them in the context of a sentence. Don't worry about not being able to speak much in a conversation. Just have a good bank of sentences for common use that you can parrot off fairly smoothly and then work from those as a basis to other sentences.

 

There are a number of apps you can try. Not sure how good they are. Maybe if you are very beginner then the majority will have some elementary use. I think designing a good app is quite hard given the divergent interests of different users.

[gwr71]

Take a look at yoyochinese.com .  See if you like it.  Check "Chinese on the street".

 

 You have had a good experience having being been  in a Chinese environment for 1 month.  If you expected in 1 month to speak Chinese like the Chinese only after learning Mandarin for 8 months, you were truly mistaken.     If you fail to prepare properly then expect to properly fail.  It seems that you have learned from your experience as you have reached out to this forum.  Find out what method suits you.  The most popular method for learning on the web may be inappropriate for you.  You are going to be in a Chinese environment for 1 academic year.   A different approach is clearly needed.  There are very knowledgeable persons in this forum. Listen to them.

 

I can safely say that after only 8 months before going to China for 1 month, you may be still a novice (A1-A2).  The fact that you still was able to communicate in Chinese says you have good potential.  You need to get books in your level, Novice level.  Then build a foundation in Mandarin.  As other have posted and i agree, the most difficult part of fluency is to listen and speak in Mandarin. Some persons have studied Mandarin for years and have not achieved fluency for whatever reason.  The books you choose will have cds/mp3, so practice listening to them.

Further, you need the following books in addition to the above:

1. A basic grammer book.

2. A basic verb book (of everyday verbs)

3. A dictionary of Measure words. I have attached a sample book for you to buy.  I suggest you buy it and start studying now.

4. A good visual dictionary on Chinese Culture.  I recommend that you buy "Longman's Visual Dictionary on Chinese Culture" check amazon. I also suggest you buy a modern visual dictionary as Longman's is rather old but still invaluable for any person going to study in China.

5. A good Chinese-English Dictionary.

These are books you can take with you to China.

 

In respect to listening to Chinese, if you do not understand Chinese grammer how in the world do you expect to listen and understand Mandarin speakers.

set realistic goals for your level.  

Do you know the 400 Chinese Syllables and tones? do you know the stroke order?  Do you know the 214 Chinese radicals? If the answer is yes to all the above then you can proceed to the next step which is learning grammer and the books above.  If no, then you need to learn the basics and build a proper foundation in Chinese before you can advance.  

 

In the end I do not say these words to offend you nor to discourage you but to encourage you.  As you and others are finding out learning Chinese mandarin is akin to a journey of a  1,000 miles.  You, like me have just started the first 2-3 miles. patience is a virtue and determination is a key. if you give up easily then you would not achieve your objective.  keep struggling, don't stop  and you will prevail in the end.

Good luck.

 

 

Chinese-Measure-Word-Dictionary.pdf

[mtokudome]

I want to encourage you by saying that what you feel is totally normal.  After about an year of full time study, I still felt like my listening skills were terrible.  In class I felt like I could understand my teachers fairly well, but once I went outside to the real world, I was so discouraged because I felt like I couldn't understand anything.  For me I think it was partially getting used to a variety of accents and to the listening speed.

 

One specific thing I did in my third semester was to follow @imron's advice and really double-down on my listening practice.  I systematically worked through all the intermediate and upper-intermediate ChinesePod material.  I also did a lot of listening to iMandarinPod and worked through their elementary and intermediate material.  After six months I definitely noticed a jump in my listening comprehension.  Somehow for me I felt like by making a conscious decision to really focus on one specific skill (i.e. listening) for six months and "neglecting" other skills, it really made a difference.  In reality my Chinese improved overall, but I was really happy with the progress I made in my listening.

[Flickserve]

Nice video here

 

https://youtu.be/x73MWj1PrUk

 

At about 1.05, she says, Chinese teachers will teach standard Mandarin but in reality China has a mixture of accents. It's tough.

[Shelley]

And the it is the same for most languages, BBC English does not prepare you for the northern accent, Parisian French is not French Canadian French and so on.

 

I see no problem with this, learn the standard then if you move somewhere where the accent or even dialect is different, you will absorb, learn and cope.

 

I went from Montreal Canada to Dundee Scotland, to Ohio USA, and finally Southern England. I learnt and spoke with all these accents within a short space of time. The Dundodian was the most difficult but it was doable.

[emuboy]

Sorry for the late reply, I still don't have my laptop yet </3. Thanks for the replies everyone. 

 

@roddy when you watch something like a cartoon or listen to a podcast, do you think it is best to just listen to it through or to try and transcribe it and then listen back through it with something like WorkAudioBook? 

 

@mtokudome when you were working through the Chinesepod material, what was your approach to learning it? Did you extract the dialogue and just keep listening to it? 

 

@Flickserve I think I'll have a go at what you've suggested here with the Growing Up with Chinese. I'm not sure whether I'm going to keep pushing on with the iTalki lessons though at this stage. 

[Flickserve]

2 hours ago, emuboy said:

I'm not sure whether I'm going to keep pushing on with the iTalki lessons though at this stage. 

 

 

I think it is OK to stop lessons for a while and concentrate on listening skills. Just a word of warning. Growing up with Chinese dialogue at parts is spoken pretty fast. So don't worry if you don't pick it up within ten attempts. In fact, it may take 50-100 times or more of repeating just one sentence to pick up the actors' dialogue. Although it is supposed to be fairly simple dialogue (well, it is), because they speak fast with Beijing accent, at times it turns out to be quite a test. 

 

You can separate out the mp3 of each sentence, replay them in a mp3 player on shuffle (say, twenty to thirty sentences), repeatedly look up those sentences where you can't catch the words. Try that exercise for a while for ten to twenty episodes. 

[mtokudome]

@emuboy Some specific things I did with my listening practice:

- I made sure I wasn't doing anything else (i.e. can't do it while you are also washing dishes or other multitasking)

- I would listen through the lesson once through and stop/pause/rewind if I didn't understand something or needed to look up a word in Pleco

- If you use iOS or a podcast app, it is useful to use the rewind 15 second button

- If there was an interesting word, I would put it into my Pleco flashcards

- I would collect interesting phrases and put them into Evernote, but I guess if I was even more diligent I would have turned them into Anki flashcards

- After I finished listening, and only then, would I look at the transcript and read through it to double check my understanding

 

*In my opinion I think I saw improvement, not so much from a specific approach, but from the sheer number of podcast episodes I worked through (300+).  Good luck!