Vietnamese Relationship with Chinese Languages

[xng]

Ncao,

Having the adjective after the noun as in "car blue" doesn't mean it belongs to a different family group. In french, the adjective is after the noun for most cases and yet it still belongs to the indo-european group as english.

In cantonese and min, we have some example of adjective after the noun as in "gai na" (cantonese) or "gui bu" (min) which would mean "chicken female" instead of "female chicken".

[Quest]

In cantonese and min, we have some example of adjective after the noun as in "gai na" (cantonese) or "gui bu" (min) which would mean "chicken female" instead of "female chicken".

It's "gai la 鸡乸". It's a well known example but I don't quite agree with it. 乸 is both a noun and an adjective. So in 鸡乸 and 老虎乸, the modifiers are 鸡 and 虎, and the noun is 乸. That's how my brain interprets it when I say or hear 鸡乸. The noun+adj order is very unnatural to Cantonese speakers.

鸡公、鸡乸 、鸡仔 --- they are interpreted as whole words with emphasis placed on 公乸仔, now tell me how can 仔 be an adjective to modify 鸡? So, 公、乸、仔 are nouns with 鸡 being the modifier.

[xng]

It is "gai na" not "gai la". Please distinguish your "n" and "l". I know modern cantonese people like to do lazy pronounciation such as "lei" instead of "nei" for "you". But "n" is the proper pronounciation since ancient times.

In mandarin, it is "mu ji" NOT "ji mu" so the female is an adjective. You don't say "dog female" in english, do you ?

[Quest]

It is "gai na" not "gai la".

Sorry, I don't care how it sounded in ancient times, but unlike "nei" and "lei", if you say "gai na" I wouldn't understand you, some "n"s are more tolerable than others.

In mandarin, it is "mu ji" NOT "ji mu" so the female is an adjective. You don't say "dog female" in english, do you ?

We are talking about Cantonese here. 鸡公，鸡乸，鸡仔 are like 鸡爸爸、鸡妈妈、鸡儿子，爸爸鸡、妈妈鸡、儿子鸡 will never work. 公，乸，佬，婆，仔 are special suffix nouns in Cantonese just like 爸爸妈妈儿子. They never modify other nouns.

[shibo77]

Does 鸡乸 mean mother hen(鸡母mother of chicks AdjNoun), or hen (母鸡female chicken also AdjNoun)?

-Shìbó

[HashiriKata]

Even if Cantonese and Vietnamese may occasionally have some features in common, that does not necessarily mean they’re related (English and Chinese have a lot in common too!)

I noticed some posts by 盤古, gracy and yuchi touching on a question about Vietnamese which often confuses people who don’t speak the language. Vietnamese has its own vocab stock (Vietnamese) as well as a large borrowed stock from Chinese (Sino-Vietnamese). Very often, there are words representing the same concept existing in both word stocks, but for used in different contexts. (A similar situation exists in Korean and Japanese.) Now, it’s very easy to pick out some Sino-Vietnamese words to show that Vietnamese is similar to Chinese; it’s also equally easy to pick out some native Vietnamese words to say that Vietnamese and Chinese are very different. Of course, my view is they’re very different but even with this statement, there are still problems: “very different” as compared to what?

[xng]

Hashi

The problem is how do we prove which is borrowed and which is not ? It could be that those non-sino-viet is borrowed .... To put it under mon-khmer family doesn't seem logical considering that the language group originate from east india. And we know that east india are basically of different genetic stock than east asia. considering the history of vietnam where chinese generals ruled vietnam before the tang dynasty (not part of china), it is not surprising they have chinese blood.

[Quest]

Can someone who's well versed in Vietnamese give us some examples of Vietnamese sentences and core vocabs (e.g. body parts)? (with word for word Chinese translation if possible)

[HashiriKata]

how do we prove which is borrowed and which is not ?

Most competent Vietnamese speakers will be able to tell (for phonological reasons, which are too complicated to explain here). Furthermore, native Vietnamese words would not have Chinese characters for them (the written forms for them had to be invented, based on Chinese characters). An example pair would be:

a. thiên (= heaven, borrowed from Chinese 天. Note the approximation of the Chinese pronunciation)

b. trời (= heaven, native Vietnamese word, written using 天 to indicate the meaning, together with another component to indicate the pronunciation)

I'll leave it to the better versed to give example sentences but here are some basic vocab items in Vietnamese (native, not Sino-Vietnamese):

a. một/一, hai/二, ba/三, bốn/四, năm/五, sáu/六, bảy/七, tám/八, chín/九, mười/十.

b. mặt/脸, mắt眼, mũi/鼻子, miệng/嘴/口, chân/腿, tay/手.

c. ăn/吃, chạy/跑, nói/说, vui vẽ/高兴, đẹp đẻ/漂亮, ăn ngon/好吃.

Cheers,

[bathrobe]

The idea that Vietnamese is a 'dialect' of Chinese (referred to in an earlier posting) seems to come up from time to time. I've heard it before, phrased in different ways. It usually comes from Chinese people. I don't think the Vietnamese would agree with it.

But the whole concept has inherent problems.

Let me start from the idea of 'dialect' and 'language' as applied to Chinese. There are many in the West, particularly, who maintain that Cantonese and other 'dialects' are actually separate languages. This tends to meet resistance from Chinese people, who cite things like the following in support of the idea that Cantonese (or whatever) is a Chinese dialect, not a separate language:

1) All dialects use Chinese characters. Even though the pronunciation is different, the characters tie the language together. And this is possible because all Chinese dialects possess a common word stock.

2) Cantonese etc are only spoken languages. The written language even for Cantonese speakers is Mandarin.

3) Although there may be marked differences between dialects, all Chinese speakers regard themselves as belonging to a single linguistic and cultural continuum.

4) (Going on the offensive) This assertion that dialects are different languages is merely an attempt by foreigners to destroy the unity of the Chinese people.

So even many Westerners who feel that Cantonese is different enough to be a different language will grudgingly respect the Chinese position regarding their own language.

So what are we to make of the idea that Vietnamese is just another Chinese dialect? If we look a the reasons for regarding Cantonese as a dialect and apply them to Vietnamese we get the following:

1) Vietnamese does NOT use Chinese characters (although it did in the past, very poorly adapted though they were to writing the language).

2) Vietnamese is a SPOKEN and WRITTEN language. The Vietnamese do not regard Mandarin grammar as the standard in writing their language.

3) The Vietnamese regard themselves as different from the Chinese. They have fought countless bloody wars to keep their independence.

4) (Going on the offensive) Any attempt to classify Vietnamese as a Chinese dialect can only be seen as an attempt to deny the identity and independence of the Vietnamese people, nation, and culture.

So we have a logical conundrum. If the criteria for 'Cantonese as a dialect' are correct, it is NOT possible to include Vietnamese as it does not fit the criteria.

If, on the other hand, the proponents of Vietnamese as a Chinese dialect feel that Vietnamese is a Chinese dialect despite not satisfying these criteria, then clearly the criteria themselves are in question. If we discard these criteria, then we go back to scratch -- the original position that the Chinese themselves are unable to accept: Cantonese is not a dialect, it is a language.

Such is the tangled logical web that the proponents of a 'Vietnam is just an offshoot of China' get themselves into. Unfortunately, such poorly digested logic is all too easily accepted by those for whom it satisfying to think in this way. And we get the rather condescending insinuation by some Chinese that 'Vietnamese are just Chinese anyway'.

In fact, there are other reasons why Vietnamese should be regarded as a separate language. One of them is the existence of a completely different basic word stock from Chinese, as people have pointed out above. Linguists have studied the relationship between other Mon-Khmer languages and Vietnamese and believe that the basic vocabulary of Vietnamese is derived from Mon-Khmer.

(There are those who believe that Vietnamese is actually related to Sino-Tibetan and have done studies into this. However, even if they are right, this does not demonstrate that Vietnamese is a Chinese dialect. If all Sino-Tibetan languages are to be regarded as 'Chinese dialects', then Tibetan, Burman, and a host of other languages would all just be dialects of Chinese! A Sinocentric way of viewing things, but sadly that doesn't stop some people from believing it)

It is true that Vietnamese has borrowed a lot of language and culture from China. So have the Japanese and Koreans. English has borrowed a lot from French, Latin, and Greek. But people would laugh in your face if you dared to suggest that English is just a 'dialect' of French! So why do some (and I mean some) Chinese try to make a similar insinuation about Vietnamese? A very interesting psychology at work here!

[Quest]

Well said bathrobe, but I think we can still discuss the geneology of Vietnamese in an objective way.

[xng]

My arguments are:

1) All dialects use Chinese characters. Even though the pronunciation is different, the characters tie the language together. And this is possible because all Chinese dialects possess a common word stock.

So do vietnamese which has a common chinese word stock whether it is borrowed or not is still debatable.

2) Cantonese etc are only spoken languages. The written language even for Cantonese speakers is Mandarin.

Before wenyan came about, classical chinese does not belong to mandarin only but to all chinese languages. So cantonese is also a written language ! Have you ever read Tang poems in mandarin and also in cantonese ? Which rhyme better ?

3) Although there may be marked differences between dialects, all Chinese speakers regard themselves as belonging to a single linguistic and cultural continuum.

True. But I heard somewhere that nam viet was actually founded by a chinese general so it is not so clear cut.

4) (Going on the offensive) This assertion that dialects are different languages is merely an attempt by foreigners to destroy the unity of the Chinese people.

It is not an attempt by foreigners to destory the unity of the chinese people ! They may have been dialects few thousand years ago, but it has diverged so much such that they are mutually unintelligible to each other and that qualifies it as different language but it still belongs to the same branch of the sino-tibetan family. Spanish,italy and french are similar but are not mutually intelligible. The chinese language such as Minnan itself has its own dialects such as teochiu, chuanchiu, taiwanese, amoy etc. These are true dialects as they are mutually intelligible to each other but contain some minor differences.

[xng]

1) Vietnamese does NOT use Chinese characters (although it did in the past, very poorly adapted though they were to writing the language).

Vietnamese can also be written in chinese characters or else how do they communicate with imperial china during the 1000 years rule ? Just as some cantonese words cannot be written, some vietnamese also cannot be written so there is a parallel here.

2) Vietnamese is a SPOKEN and WRITTEN language. The Vietnamese do not regard Mandarin grammar as the standard in writing their language.

Written chinese language (wen yan) is a modern development which is geared towards standard mandarin. Cantonese and hokkien is also a spoken and written language on classical chinese. Vietnamese do not regard mandarin grammar because it is not part of china now. But if it is still part of china, it would adopt it. The other chinese languages DID not use mandarin until the recent development in the 20th century to have a standard language !

3) The Vietnamese regard themselves as different from the Chinese. They have fought countless bloody wars to keep their independence.

True. But from what I read from history, it is not so simple. One of the founder of vietnam was a chinese general and there have been interclan marriages. I wouldn't think that cantonese and min are also of pure chinese blood because they also married with the local nam viet people.

4) (Going on the offensive) Any attempt to classify Vietnamese as a Chinese dialect can only be seen as an attempt to deny the identity and independence of the Vietnamese people, nation, and culture.

I wonder if taiwan will say the same thing even though they are hokkien chinese. Taiwan has actually wanted itself to be declared as a separate nation different from china. A nation has nothing to do with linguistic affiliation. Do you think that american english is not related to british english just because it is a diffferent country ? As for culture, the vietnamese still eat noodles, chopstick, wear those wide hats, even those cheongsam like clothes - not very different from china.

Compare with european countries or the indonesian malay people. They don't eat noodles, chopsticks as their main eating habit.

I am not trying to say vietnamese is or is not related to chinese languages. But it is not so clear cut judging by your arguments.

[nnt]

Vietnamese can also be written in chinese characters or else how do they communicate with imperial china during the 1000 years rule ?

Well, before the 20th century, the official written language in Vietnam was Classical Chinese (wenyan)using classical Chinese grammar. But Vietnamese pronunciation of the CHinese characters (Han/Viet) was different from any other Chinese dialects, because it derived from the Tang official language/pronounciation which is the common root to Chinese dialects, Japanese On-reading and Hanja. To say that Han/Viet derived from Cantonese or Mandarin or Min is simply not to know History.

In that sense, Han/Viet pronunciation was a Chinese wenyan dialect, not related to Cantonese or mandarin BaiHua which are present day Chinese dialects.

But just as Latin was the lingua franca in Europe alongside other national languages, Vietnamese, not Chinese was a different language used in everyday usage by the common people in Vietnam. Besides, before the invention of the Nôm writing (based on Chinese characters enhanced and twisted to suit Vietnamese richness in tones and sounds), some people think there was an older writing related with Pali similar to Thai writings, coming with Buddhism (which was propagated to Vietnam directly from India before it came from China)

Vietnamese scholars in some cases wrote their poems twice : first in classical Chinese, then they translated their own poem into Vietnamese.

Written chinese language (wen yan) is a modern development which is geared towards standard mandarin.Vietnamese do not regard mandarin grammar because it is not part of china now. But if it is still part of china, it would adopt it.

Baihua mandarin (present day mandarin) has never been a standard in imperial China. Its usage in CHina itself only dates back to the 4th May movement in 1919...

The Vietnamese have officially used classical Chinese for a thousand years after their independence in 939 without having adopted it as Vietnamese language.

The fact is the relations between Vietnamese and Chinese languages are old and continous , and many Chinese words have been assimilated into Vietnamese even before the formation of Han/Viet ( Tang period) .

It's surprising nobody says Japanese is a Chinese dialect although 99,9% of the signs used in Japanese are Kanjis (~50000 versus 100-odd kanas).

[HashiriKata]

It's surprising nobody says Japanese is a Chinese dialect although 99,9% of the signs used in Japanese are Kanjis (~50000 versus 100-odd kanas).

You'll be surprised to know that lots of people in the West say Chinese & Japanese are the same/related. Still, half of what we say is erroneous, so who cares if someone says Vietnamese is a Chinese dialect?

[nnt]

I should have written "nobody on this Forum" instead of "nobody".

You'll be surprised to know that lots of people in the West say Chinese & Japanese are the same/related

You're right...That's the Japaneses' fault too ! They say Kanjis are Japanese. For the common people, effectively "Bonsai", "Ninja", "Judo" are Japanese words. Is that true?

[xng]

Originally Posted by nnt

It's surprising nobody says Japanese is a Chinese dialect although 99,9% of the signs used in Japanese are Kanjis (~50000 versus 100-odd kanas).

The main reason is that japanese language is polysyllabic and non-tonal. Even though they borrowed the chinese characters, they still sound very different. Whereas there are more similarities between vietnamese and other chinese languages.

If we can translate to equivalent cantonese version from vietnamese, you can see how similar they are. For example, the "s" in cantonese becomes "t". "sam" becomes "tam".

[xng]

Quote:

Written chinese language (wen yan) is a modern development which is geared towards standard mandarin.Vietnamese do not regard mandarin grammar because it is not part of china now. But if it is still part of china, it would adopt it.

Correction: My mistake. It should be "bai hua" not "wen yan". (Didn't foolproof my writings).

[Quest]

It's surprising nobody says Japanese is a Chinese dialect

Ask some of your less informed friends from China and you will think otherwise

[xng]

This url will give you a different perspective on the vietnamese-sino relationship.

http://www.glossika.com/en/dict/dialectv.php