Vietnamese Relationship with Chinese Languages

[HashiriKata]

Since the language was romanized over a hundred years ago, I assume that any neccesary translation work must have already been completed.

Anyway, I can only say what I think probable but I don't really know. Where is our resident expert on Vietnam, nnt? Haven't seen him for quite some time now.

[Mark Yong]

I have seen photographs of temples and other old buildings in Vietnam bearing signs written or carved in Chinese characters. I guess those date back to before the turn of the 20th century.

Does anyone know of any historical Classical Chinese texts written by Vietnamese scholars, that are available on the Web? I hear that in days of yore, Vietnam also produced quite a few notable scholars who were fluent in the classical written language.

Also, does anyone who how active the Chu Nom preservation activities in Vietnam really is? I am aware that there is a Chu Nom Preservation Society somewhere on the Web, and that most of the characters have already been classified and mapped. Would be great if more of the younger Vietnamese generation can read their country's historical written language.

[PandaRoo]

You guys might be interested in the fact that Vietnamese used to be written using small adjustments on Chinese characters, making a new type of writing.

It was called Chữ Nôm, and isn't really popular today.

However, I'm quite sure that these characters only represented the sound of the Vietnamese word, not its meaning. But it is important to note that some words (like those many of you have already discussed) are very similar-sounding in both languages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%E1%BB%AF_n%C3%B4m

[rmontelatici]

You can think of Chữ Nôm as an extension of the original set of chinese characters devised to write all of the spoken vietnamese language.

To put it simply, vietnamese words directly borrowed from chinese are written using the original chinese characters, and new characters are used for native vietnamese words.

To achieve that, the standard ways of building chinese characters are applied further, the most common being the pairing of Semantic + Phonetic components (as in modern chinese).

For example:

* tứ (number 4 in sino-vietnamese) is written 四,

* bốn (number 4 in vietnamese, not a chinese word) is written by 四 in top of 本 (this character won't display well in your browser, you can have a look at the Unicode U+2629A page) where 本 is used for its phonetic value (本 can be read bản in vietnamese),

* bún (the vietnamese vermicelli, not a chinese word) is written by adding 米 (semantic component) on the left of the previous character, making up yet another new character (Unicode U+25EF8).

[HashiriKata]

It was called Chữ Nôm, and isn't really popular today.

That's right, and of course, it can't be popular, because it's not used and there are only a few specialists who understand it, so it can't even be taught.

For example:

* tứ (number 4 in sino-vietnamese) is written 四' date='

* bốn (number 4 in vietnamese, not a chinese word) is written by 四 in top of 本 (this character won't display well in your browser, you can have a look at the Unicode U+2629A page) where 本 is used for its phonetic value (本 can be read bản in vietnamese),

* bún (the vietnamese vermicelli, not a chinese word) is written by adding 米 (semantic component) on the left of the previous character, making up yet another new character (Unicode U+25EF8 ).[/quote']

This is a very good example of how Chữ Nôm is made up. It also shows that it would be easier for Chinese speakers than for Vietnamese speakers to understand Chữ Nôm, which explains the reason for Chữ Nôm to have never taken off.

Long time no see, rmontelatici! So you're in Hong Kong now? and are you learning Cantonese?

[nnt]

This is a very good example of how Chữ Nôm is made up. It also shows that it would be easier for Chinese speakers than for Vietnamese speakers to understand Chữ Nôm, which explains the reason for Chữ Nôm to have never taken off.

Not quite...

To read Chữ Nôm you must :

1. know Chinese characters and their vietnamese pronunciations (Hán/Việt)

2. know vietnamese language

The first point means that it is hard for Vietnamese , AND for Chinese people .

Chinese characters are hard even for Chinese people, that has been a subject for a very hot and long debate:wink: . Moreover, to learn Chữ Nôm, you must know traditional AND simplified characters AND variants (the vietnamese also created their own variants) , because most Chữ Nôm texts (even printed ones) used a mix of all .

The Hán/Việt pronunciation of Chinese characters derived from Tang/Sung Chinese pronunciations, and cannot be guessed from present day cantonese or mandarin, even if there are similarities due to their common origin. Chinese "know" Kanjis but not the Japanese pronunciations (and meanings...)

The second point means that it is hard for Chinese , less for Vietnamese people (but vietnamese is hard, even for vietnamese people, but that's another subject ). To learn Chữ Nôm without learning vietnamese (grammar and romanized writing ) is a nonsense, because Chữ Nôm is just vietnamese without abc...

Just to learn the basics for Chữ Nôm .

It's as hard for a Chinese to learn Chữ Nôm as for a Vietnamese.

It's also hard to explain Chữ Nôm

[HashiriKata]

it would be easier for Chinese speakers than for Vietnamese speakers to understand Chữ Nôm

nnt, what I meant by this statement is simply that given a passage written in Chữ Nôm, most untrained Vietnamese wouldn't be able to make anything out of it whereas many untrained Chinese would have some, even if vague, ideas what the passage is about. What you said above is certainly correct if a Chinese has to learn to read Chữ Nôm properly, because in this case he is not just learning how to read but is in fact also learning the language, which is a different ball game.

Anyway, nice to see you again . It's been a while I haven't seen your post.

[studentyoung]

It's also hard to explain Chữ Nôm

Here is a funny article for you, nnt. Hope you will like it. (Please check the link below.)

http://cache.baidu.com/c?word=%CA%D4%CE%F6%2C%E0%AB%D7%D6%2C%B5%C4%3B%C3%F1%D7%E5%3B%D0%D4&url=http%3A//www%2Epkucn%2Ecom/archiver/%3Ftid%2D23753%2Dpage%2D5%2Ehtml&p=882a954092880afc57ed97344f5f8c&user=baidu

试析“喃字”的民族性

Thanks!

[shanli]

These simple sentences are NOM

Lesson 1: How are you?

吀嘲!

Lesson 2: Where are you going?

姊兜?

Lesson 3: In the library.

中書院

Lesson 4: Who's that?

低罗哀?

Lesson 5: What's the time?

耒?

Lesson 6: What are you doing?

英爫丐夷?

Lesson 7: At the bookstore?

於店冊



source: http://nom.ghoxy.com/

[zozzen]

I had a funny experience in Vietnam about the language. During my stay at Nha Trang, I wanted to buy a swimming goggles with short sighted lens.

I used my body language , pointing my glasses and the goggles. No one understood me.

Then I spoke English, saying "shorted sighted lens. short sighted, short sighted. Myopia. " No one understood me.

Being frustrated with the situation, I spoke Cantonese, and hopelessly said "近視, 近視呀! " (pronounced as Gan Si) And this time, the staff said "Aaaaaa! Gan Thi! You mean Gan Thi! " Gan Thi is vietnamese word for myopia. Thanks god I can speak Cantonese, but the staff answered "No , we don't have Gan Thi goggles"

[nnt]

近視 :cận thị = myopia

But there also is another old set expression, used to tell where to build your house :

nhầt cận thị, nhị cận giang 一 近 市 , 二 近 江

first near a market , then near a river

But there is no way to confuse cận thị 近視 (myopia ) , and cận thị 近 市 (near a market )

Classical Chinese was like Latin in Europe or in Asterix for French readers

[IGING]

Lots of spoken Vietnamese words are borrowed from Cantonese, but Vietnamese speak them naturally without knowing that they are loan words.

For example: xịn, dách lầu, hui nhị tì, hoành thánh, há cảo, thòng, phổ ki, xì dách, xây lủ cối, lẩu, lì xì, nhẩm xà, tài xỉu, mã thầu dậu, etc.

[papen]

As a Vietnamese, I can say our language is very flexible. Like in page 3 says:

他來了。= Anh ta đã đến rồi.

他來了嗎？ = Anh ta đã đến chưa ?

他喝了那杯茶 = Anh ta đã uống xong ly trà .

昨天晚上他看了電視 = Tối qua anh ta (đã) xem Ti Vi.

誰 是 高 先 生 ？ = Cao tiên sinh là ai ?

我就是 = Là tôi. (no translation)

我昨天晚上九點就睡覺了 = Tôi tối qua 9 giờ đã đi ngủ.

要是你不去 ，我就不去 = Nếu anh không đi, tôi cũng không đi .

The Chinese's context could be able to translate into Vietnamese words by words. If you read Vietnamese newspaper in oversea or talk to Vietnamese people who live in Taiwan, the way they use Vietnamese is quite different than the Vietnamese in the mainland.

For example: Tôi ở cao trung học tập 我在高中学习。

I can write it as Tôi học tập ở cao học : 我学习在高学（校)

Or： Ở cao học tôi học tập: 在高中我学习

And Vietnamese uses Chinese as their vocabulary is quite different with Chinese. For example: 飞机场

机场 = airport but in Vietnamese, we use 飞场 = phi trường or 场飞 = sân bay.

Vietnamese uses dual grammar: adj+noun and noun+adj in this case

Btw: page 3

我就是 = Là tôi.

This one is wrong. Là tôi means: (就)是我

誰 是 高 先 生 ？ = Cao tiên sinh là ai ?

"Cao tiên sinh là ai" is: 高先生是谁？

But there is no way to confuse cận thị 近視 (myopia ) , and cận thị 近 市 (near a market )

because Vietnamese doesn't use Chinese character anymore, so it creates the confusion:

Both "market" and "sigh" pronouns the same: Thị

But "Thị" in Siêu Thị means market, and "Thị" in Thị Giác means eye's sigh

If you just say Thị without any words accompany it, most people will think it's a Fruit because Thị is also a name of a fruit : Quả Thị or confuse it with "Thì" (then) because quite a number people mispronounces the tone 5 and 2

[LyYenKhang]

Somebody asked for an example of a Vietnamese author writing in classical Chinese, so here is a poem by Nguyen Du (Ruan3 You1) (centre is Han-Viet pronunciation, bottom is modern Vietnamese translation)

記夢

逝水日夜流，

遊子行未歸。

經年不相見，

何以慰相思。

夢中分明見，

尋我江之湄。

顏色是疇昔，

衣飭多參差。

始言苦病患，

繼言久別離。

帶泣不終語，

彷彿如隔帷。

平生不識路，

夢魂還是非。

疊山多虎廌，

藍水多蛟螭。

道路險且惡，

弱質將何依。

夢來孤燈清，

夢去寒風吹。

美人不相見，

柔情亂如絲。

空屋漏斜月，

照我單裳衣。

Ký mộng

Thệ thuỷ nhật dạ lưu,

Du tử hành vị quy.

Kinh niên bất tương kiến,

Hà dĩ ủy tương ti (tư).

Mộng trung phân minh kiến,

Tầm ngã giang chi mi.

Nhan sắc thị trù tích,

Y sức đa sâm si.

Thuỷ ngôn khổ bệnh hoạn,

Kế ngôn cữu biệt ly.

Đới khấp bất chung ngữ,

Phảng phất như cách duy.

Bình sinh bất thức lộ,

Mộng hồn hoàn thị phi ?

Điệp sơn đa hổ trĩ,

Lam thuỷ đa giao ly.

Đạo lộ hiểm thả ác,

Nhược chất tương hà y ?

Mộng lai cô đăng thanh,

Mộng khứ hàn phong xuy.

Mỹ nhân bất tương kiến,

Như tình loạn như ty.

Không ốc lậu tà nguyệt,

Chiếu ngã đan thường y.

Ghi lại giấc mộng (Người dịch: Nguyễn Thạch Giang)

Dòng nước ngày đêm chảy,

Người đi biệt vân mòng.

Bao năm không gặp mặt,

Lấy gì khuây nhớ nhung

Trong mộng rõ ràng thấy,

Tìm ta trên bến sông

Mặt màt vẫn như trước,

Áo quần hơi lòng thòng.

Trước nói chuyện đau ốm,

Sau nói nỗi chờ mong.

Nghẹn ngào không kể xiết,

Phảng phất như cách mùng.

Bình sinh không thuộc lối,

Hồn mộng biết đúng không?

Núi Điệp nhiều hổ báo,

Sông Lam nhiều thuồng luồng,

Đường sá hiểm lại dữ,

Thân yếu cậy ai cùng?

Mộng đến đèn leo lét,

Mộng tỉnh, gió lạnh lùng.

Người đẹp không thấy nữa.

Vò rối mối tơ lòng

Trăng tà lọt nhà trống,

Soi áo ta mỏng không.

[skylee]

The poem reminds me of Miriam Yeung's old song 再見二町目. One of the lines reads 歲月長衣裳薄, and it is about the best line, so tender, so sad.

PS - Many other people, including the author, seem to like the line 原來我非不快樂 very much.

[LyYenKhang]

More poems by him:

道意

明月照古井，

井水無波濤。

不被人牽扯，

此心終不搖。

縱被人牽扯，

一搖還復止。

湛湛一片心，

明月古井水。

-----------------

夜坐

四壁蛩聲鬧夜綿，

隘床移向曲欗邊。

微風不動霜垂地，

斜月無光星滿天。

今古閒愁來醉後，

蓴鱸香思在秋先。

白頭所計維衣食，

何得狂歌似少年？

[skylee]

how old are these poems? are they famous? Lines 3 to 6 of the 五律 at #116 sound strange IMHO.

[LyYenKhang]

They're from the late 18th/early 19th century. He's not as famous for his Chinese poetry as he is for his 金雲翹傳

I'm just getting random poems of his from: http://www.thivien.net/ (have to sign up to access the pages).

[LyYenKhang]

徐州道中

桑乾南下白雲多

水遠山長瞥眼過

萬里利名驅白髮

一天風雪渡黃河

每憐故態惟狂在

欲覓新歡奈老何

攘盡苦寒三閱月

嶺頭落得看梅花

春夜

黑夜韶光何處尋

小窗開處柳陰陰

江湖病到經時久

風雨春隨一夜深

羈旅多年燈下淚

家鄉千里月中心

南臺村外龍江水

一片寒聲送古今

[LyYenKhang]

Here are some poems by 胡春香:

月夜歌其一

露如珠兮月如瑳，

倏往來兮照予懷。

惋故人兮天涯，

愛不見兮心徘徊。

苔荒神女廟，

雲散楚王臺。

明月光如許，

我思之人兮焉在哉。

秋風歌

秋風起兮白雲飛，

草木黃落兮雁南歸。

蘭有秀兮菊有芳，

懷佳人兮不能忘。

我有酒兮無對飲，

我有琴兮無知音。

不酌酒兮不鳴琴，

數杯清茗兮故人心。

月夜歌其二

花其字兮葩其詩，

霞為裳兮雲為衣。

亦既覯兮我心則夷，

語曷既兮栖遲。

愁溙湘水聽，

悶壓蜀山低。

日月無兮垠兮，

情之所鍾，

不知其期。

述意兼呈友人枚山甫

花飄飄，

木蕭蕭，

我夢鄉情各寂寥，

可感是春宵。

鹿呦呦，

鴈嗷嗷，

歡草相期在一朝，

不盡我心描。

江潑潑，

水活活，

我思君懷相契闊，

淚痕沾夏葛。

詩屑屑，

心切切，

濃淡寸情須兩達，

也憑君筆發。

風昂昂，

月茫茫，

風月令空客斷腸，

何處是騰王？

雲蒼蒼，

水泱泱，

雲水那堪望一場，

一場遙望觸懷忙。

日祈祈，

夜遲遲，

日夜偏懷旅思悲，

思悲應莫誤佳期。

風扉扉，

雨霏霏，

風雨頻催彩筆揮，

筆揮都是付情兒。

君有心，

我有心，

夢魂相戀柳花陰。

詩同吟，

月同斟，

一字愁分離，

何人煖半衾。

莫彈離曲怨知音，

直須棄置此瑤琴。

高山流水晚相尋，

應不恨吟歎古今。

君何期，

我何期，

施亭來得兩栖遲。

茗頻披，

筆頻揮，

一場都筆舌，

何處是情兒？

好憑心上各相知，

也應交錯此緣綈，

芳心誓不負佳期。