Chinese government bans hip hop and tattoos from TV

[Zbigniew]

Control that low impulse of yours now.

[陳德聰]

6 hours ago, studychinese said:

Tattoos ... for example are a sign of low impulse control.

Luckily, whether you are right or not with this wild claim is not dependant on my taste.

 

I will end my participation now in what has not been a particularly stimulating discussion into the merits of arbitrary moral judgments by asking that people try to bring the discussion back to the China context and not just the evils of people who partake in practices that have been around for millennia.

[studychinese]

陳德聰, 

 

The Chinese government considers hip hop to be a degenerate import. I've looked into Chinese history and I don't see hip hop there anywhere. 

 

As for tattoos, I know that in Chinese history criminals were inked by the authorities. A description of their crime would be tattooed onto their face.

 

Perhaps your issue is with the concept of degeneracy itself. China doesn't have a problem with understanding the concept. Perhaps you should be less hegemonic and more understanding. 

[somethingfunny]

Moral degeneracy is ultimately what you don't like, after all, what's to say that I don't enjoy stealing money from old ladies?  The point is that this type of moral relativism, while theoretically true, is practically untenable.  Hence we have laws which restrict people's freedom.  However, this shouldn't prevent us from questioning our own preconceptions about a possible link between, say, tattoos and 'moral degeneracy'.

 

I think the most important point that has been made here though is that it is a bit rich of the Chinese government to call out hip-hop as moral degeneracy given all the examples that have been previously raised.  I'm no fan of tattoos, but I think we can all agree they're pretty harmless compared to the institutionalized corruption, widespread prostitution and environmental damage currently occurring in Chinese society.

 

Why then, does the Chinese government care?  I imagine they see it as a threat to traditional conservative values which are still largely present in the society.  Western culture is built around the individual, which does not fit nicely with the way the Chinese government likes to do business.  I find this interesting, as it's always presented as a "does not fit with socialist values" issue, but given the unique Chinese interpretation of what this actually is, it really comes down to Chinese society being more conservative.

 

The same thing has happened everywhere else in the world.  It happened in the UK in the 1960's with the mods and rockers.  (I'll stop here before I use the term "moral panic".)

[Tomsima]

4 hours ago, studychinese said:

As for tattoos

獨龍族 comes to mind as one avenue for further exploration into the history of tattoos in China. This may of course also appear 'degenerate' to some people.

 

And so this excellent topic reaches to its inevitable zenith: what is art?

[Christa]

Whatever was not common during one's own childhood tends to be what gets labelled as morally degenerate when one gets old enough to wield power.

[studychinese]

6 hours ago, Christa said:

Whatever was not common during one's own childhood tends to be what gets labelled as morally degenerate when one gets old enough to wield power

 

Really? I've found that the things considered degenerate were almost always considered a thousand years ago too. 

[Christa]

1 hour ago, studychinese said:

Really? I've found that the things considered degenerate were almost always considered a thousand years ago too. 

 

I think the word "degenerate" itself suggests a movement away from something towards something else. So typically this involves the perception that things were a certain way at some point but are now different and that this new state of affairs is worse than the old one.

 

New music, art, fashions, ways of socialising tend to almost always be regarded as (to varying extents) degenerate - until they become the status quo that is. Then what follows them becomes considered degenerate. So in the 20s and 30s jazz is degenerate. In the 50s and 60s jazz is now civilised but rock and roll is degenerate. In the 2000s rock and roll is fine but hip hop is degenerate (at least in China, according to some, for the moment).

[Lu]

7 hours ago, studychinese said:

I've found that the things considered degenerate were almost always considered a thousand years ago too. 

Yes, things like hiphop, which has been considered degenerate for all six thousand years of Chinese history. And tattoos, which have not been integral to all kinds of Pacific cultures for centuries.

[studychinese]

1 hour ago, Lu said:

Yes, things like hiphop, which has been considered degenerate for all six thousand years of Chinese history. And tattoos, which have not been integral to all kinds of Pacific cultures for centuries.

 

I was thinking of other things, but hip hop need not be degenerate per se. I've heard "clean hip hop" in Japan, for example. To the extent that it is influenced by criminal subcultures, and an example is given in this thread, it is degenerate. 

 

As for the Pacific Islands, my understanding is that the islanders did not randomly choose tattoos for themselves, the tattoos announced to other people their deeds, position in society, and tribal affiliation. The tattoos had purpose and function. Compare to the modern day, particularly in the West where getting a tattoo is usually  self indulgent narcissism, with some people even getting those Pacific Islands tribal tattoos. More than once I've asked a non Pacific Islander what tribe they belong to. In context it is degeneracy. 

[Christa]

9 hours ago, studychinese said:

I was thinking of other things, but hip hop need not be degenerate per se. I've heard "clean hip hop" in Japan, for example. To the extent that it is influenced by criminal subcultures, and an example is given in this thread, it is degenerate. 

 

As for the Pacific Islands, my understanding is that the islanders did not randomly choose tattoos for themselves, the tattoos announced to other people their deeds, position in society, and tribal affiliation. The tattoos had purpose and function. Compare to the modern day, particularly in the West where getting a tattoo is usually  self indulgent narcissism, with some people even getting those Pacific Islands tribal tattoos. More than once I've asked a non Pacific Islander what tribe they belong to. In context it is degeneracy. 

 

Yes but degenerating from what to what? Degeneracy implies a shift from something to something else. If what you say is correct then things before were somehow better and are now being made worse by things such as hip hop - but are they?

 

Today's society suffers from murder, rape, robbery, assault, child molestation and various other forms of cruel and immoral behaviour - but then so did society in the 1950s. And the 1850s. And in the 1250s. And so on.

 

So, I have to ask, when was this Golden Age from which we have degenerated?

[studychinese]

1 hour ago, Christa said:

Yes but degenerating from what to what? Degeneracy implies a shift from something to something else. If what you say is correct then things before were somehow better and are now being made worse by things such as hip hop - but are they?

 

Today's society suffers from murder, rape, robbery, assault, child molestation and various other forms of cruel and immoral behaviour - but then so did society in the 1950s. And the 1850s. And in the 1250s. And so on.

 

So, I have to ask, when was this Golden Age from which we have degenerated?

 

Conflating crimes (murder, theft, etc) with non-crimes (tattoos) is problematic. As for the crimes, there are few societies that accepted criminality in the first place.

 

I could point out some concrete examples of degeneracy but it is beyond the scope of this site. I will say that my concept of degeneracy is in accord with that of the Chinese government and Chinese society at large.

[roddy]

The idea that there's a millennia-old 'concept of degeneracy' common to both the Chinese government and Chinese society in general is, if anyone's interested, solid evidence for the pointlessness of engaging with studychinese on this topic. 

[Christa]

1 hour ago, studychinese said:

Conflating crimes (murder, theft, etc) with non-crimes (tattoos) is problematic.

 

I think you might be missing my point.

 

I mentioned those social and criminal problems simply to illustrate that we are not necessarily degenerating from something better to something worse. Instead, I'm suggesting that things are much the same as they always were and that you (as have many generations of people before you) are simply conflating "degenerate" with "new".

 

Apparently, when Elvis Presley wiggled his hips, this was going to lead to mass degeneracy - at least, many people thought so at the time. Few people worry about this today though, as this sort of wiggling is no longer a new thing.

 

1 hour ago, studychinese said:

I could point out some concrete examples of degeneracy but it is beyond the scope of this site.

 

I don't think you could. All this has happened before and all of this will happen again.

 

1 hour ago, roddy said:

The idea that there's a millennia-old 'concept of degeneracy' common to both the Chinese government and Chinese society in general is, if anyone's interested, solid evidence for the pointlessness of engaging with studychinese on this topic. 

 

And yes, this would have been my next point. I find it hard to get a group of my Chinese friends to agree on what to have for dinner, let alone get 1.379 billion of them to agree with the concept of degeneracy preferred by the Chinese government of the moment. There was a time, I recall, when the China Communist Party considered the accumulation of wealth and capital to be degenerate. How times change...

[DavyJonesLocker]

It is society as a whole that needs to form some sort of definition of "moral degeneracy", which will inevitable change over the decades. Naturally as individuals we may agree or disagree with accepted standards for a given time period. 

 

I think in the west this attitude or "one can do what they like as long as they are not hurting someone" has been taken too far and we should pay attention towards the Chinese government's approach to setting a moral standard. I disagree with that attitude and believe that given we live together in a society we must accept rules of that society. Social Cohesion is declining in the west in my view.
 

If one watches any of these singing competitions like 我是歌手 or 中国好声音 and compare that to a British Simon cowell versions, the attitudes by the judges towards the contestants is stark. In the UK versions we see smug judges jeering,  belittling contestants for their own self amusement and to encourage the crowd to boo etc. In the chinese version its very compassionate, polite and constructive criticism offered. Similarly with these cookery type shows featuring people like that vile Gordon Ramsay. Why we think someone like him yelling screaming obscenities at contestants is acceptable entertainment is beyond me.  This does not happen on Chinese TV (nor Korean for that matter in my experience). To me that is an example of moral degeneracy in the west.

[Zbigniew]

58 minutes ago, DavyJonesLocker said:

we should pay attention towards the Chinese government's approach to setting a moral standard

Never a truer word said.

[somethingfunny]

Yeah, I think most people in 'The West' are happy to cede a little moral degeneracy for the freedom to do whatever they individually choose.  You could almost call it... the fundamental principle of western society...

 

This isn't to say that the Western model is perfect.  The societal discourse that determines moral norms ultimately occurs through the media, which has its own agenda and will therefore attempt to influence the outcome.  Rather this than being told what are the standard moral norms by a non-elected government elite though.  

[DavyJonesLocker]

8 hours ago, Zbigniew said:

ever a truer word said.

 

I'm sure you and others know in what limited context I'm talking about. No one is denying the other the negative aspects of China. Not relevant to this thread, we are discussing acceptable behaviour on TV as by the OPs post.

[studychinese]

On 2/2/2018 at 8:56 PM, DavyJonesLocker said:

No one is denying the other the negative aspects of China.

 

Although almost everyone is denying the negative aspects of the West. It makes me laugh that someone from the UK, for example, would call China a police state. Really sad.

[LiMo]

Statistics are also not on the side of those who claim that "sex, drugs, and rap music" are the signs of greater moral degeneracy. Almost all categories of crime have been on a steady decline across the developed world just happening to coincide with the rise of these so called "moral ailments." I think this suggets that there is little causal link between them at all.

 

It's important to note that popular perceptions of societal trends, especially threats and risk, are often very poor indicators of the real incidence of these things. Many people are more worried about crime today than they were in the past even though the objective stats show that we needn't be. People are worrying about terrorism when they leave the house instead of worrying that they'll be hit by a car, something which is MUCH more likely to happen. 

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/07/is-violence-in-america-going-up-or-down/491384/

This is a fun link. See if you can chart the murder rate.

 

https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-09-29/world-actually-becoming-more-peaceful-believe-it-or-not

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22530073-200-why-violent-crime-is-plummeting-in-the-rich-world/

 

While these sources focus on violence I think they're illustrative of the fact that our perceptions are often highly inaccurate.

 

I'd also take issue with the assertion that comedians ridicule the disabled etc. more than they used to. Have you ever seen that show, "It was alright in the 70s." There's much more people could get away with back then in terms of sexism, racism and ableism. I think you're mostly just responding to the fact that people use more colourful language than they used to. For my part I thoroughly enjoy old comedies but the appearance of innocence is not the thing itself. While I think the trends in reality TV do reflect poorly on our society I do not necessarily think of them as representative of the wider culture which, as many would argue, has become much more respectful of people in other ways which are perhaps more meaningful.

 

As for the Chinese government cracking down on "moral degeneracy," I think this is a shame but it just demonstrates their paranoia. Hip hop, in its original form, before it went mainstream, was quite subversive, but was watered down and bastardised until it became the largely meaningless farce that we see today. It's possible they're just trying to head off the opposite trend occuring in China, "from empty posturing to actual conscious dissent." Who knows if that would ever actually happen though.