Tone and active vocabulary problems at more advanced level

[Wippen (inactive)]

It is frustrating that I am able to accurately recall some 95% of the correct tones of all the characters I know (for example a newspaper article - I may not know all but the ones I know are ok tonewise). When reading out loud for example tones mistakes are then 5%. However when speaking the tone  mistakes are more copious maybe 15-20%. When speaking I can hear I am making them. I understand it is because we have more time to think when reading.  

 

Are other people having the same probem. If not, any advice?

 

I also don't find it easy to incorporate into my active vocabulary idioms and especially chenguys. The common ones are not a problem. However,  if a particular phrase occurs less ofen and I have to wait a while to hear it again, then typically I cannot instantly use it in a conversation. Though I know that such and such idiom would fit right here, but the words won't come out instantly.

 

How do you go about transferring passive vocabulary into an active one?

 

Thanks for listening. 

 

 

 

[imron]

44 minutes ago, Tøsen said:

If not, any advice?

Record yourself.  Listen back.  Record again and actively try to correct any mistakes.  Listen back.  Record again and actively try to correct any mistakes.  Repeat until mistakes are minimal.

[AdamD]

59 minutes ago, Tøsen said:

Are other people having the same probem.

 

Yep. It’s frustrating when you intend to say one thing but keep saying another.

 

As imron suggested, record yourself and play it back. Drill.

[Tomsima]

Yes having the same problem. I currently spend a daily minimum of 30 mins on workaudiobook doing shadowing, 30 mins repeating out chengyu. I've hit every day this year and it has made a HUGE difference to my speaking

[歐博思]

Above answers are smart.

 

I'll add that it's not much different than mastering any other skill. For example, I practiced left-footed soccer kicks for hours on end when I was younger, and I feel equally comfortable kicking with either foot now. Just gotta put in the quality time.

 

Also, don't get burnt out when practicing. I believe it's generally better to do frequent, shorter sessions than infrequent, long sessions.

[Wippen (inactive)]

Thanks for the answers. All very useful.

I have in the past done recordings and shadowing. It does get tedious after a while. But you are right, it is probably the best way.

 

@Tomsima Comforting to know someone if your caliber goes through the same.

 

Isn't it weird that I can know the tones but still say it wrong.

 

I have sometimes asked a tutor to correct tone mistakes and have her say back how my wrong tones sound. Awful, but it helps not repeating the mistakes.

 

The process is definitely not 一蹴而就。(one of the chengyu in my active vocabulary incidentally)

 

[Tomsima]

But its also not 一蹶不振!

 

I definitely know how you feel, it's so incredibly annoying to hear your mouth uncontrollably saying a wrong tone. I did it this evening at dinner, I said 加糖 as jia1 tang1 and was met with confusion as the hotpot already had enough 湯. But at least I know why I automatically said two firsts: from listening to my recordings of myself everyday I've found I'm really comfortable with a 1st-1st contour, but 1st-2nd always makes me hesitate. In the heat of the moment my brain seems to autopilot to a comfortable 1st-1st. Its incredibly annoying, but shadowing and reviewing has made me understand how to correct it.

 

Keep on plowing on. I'm going for 30 mins a day for the whole year, will post audio at the end of the year, if you're up for it, you should too

[imron]

5 hours ago, Tøsen said:

But you are right, it is probably the best way

Train what you want to learn. Don't expect to get good at a skill that you aren't actively practicing it. 

[imron]

5 hours ago, Tøsen said:

Isn't it weird that I can know the tones but still say it wrong.

It is a little bit - in the same way it was weird when I first realised that reading and writing were completely different skills - which I didn't realise until I started learning Chinese. 

 

All it highlights is that vocab acquisition is a different skill from using that vocab, which is another reason why SRS shouldn't drive your learning process. 

[艾墨本]

17 hours ago, Tøsen said:

Isn't it weird that I can know the tones but still say it wrong.

There is so much more to saying the right tone that just knowing what it is, especially due to how much influence surrounding tones have on each other.

 

You've got the actually muscles at work (and there are a lot of them!) as well as all the new ones that you don't use in your native tongue but are needed in your new language. Takes time to train them. This is where learning a language is more like learning a sport. I don't care how meticulously you can pick apart Tiger Wood's swing, that doesn't mean you can do it.

 

That you've got a massive amount of context in Chinese, where to add stress (beyond just the tone)? Do you stress the primary noun or the conjunction? Turns out in Chinese, and in contrast to English, conjunctions are spoken lightly while the "central word" is spoken with emphasis. But then on top of that there is a flow of stress and unstress in Chinese the same way you'd find in English poetry, which is used to express emotion and tone of voice (anger, joy, etc.).

 

And then the tones you're learning and labeling with 1-4 (and 5 for neutral). But what two third tones in a row? Or how about a 不 before a third tone versus a fourth tone? What if you have three third tones in a row, well now you need to know if it is a pairing of (A+B)C or A(B+C) or (A)(B)(C) 我很喜欢 讨好老师. And there are many more situations like this. Tones in fluid speech do not match the tone you write above your pinyin.

 

Oh, and don't forget adding in emotion. How do you add anger on top of your first tone or joy on top of a fourth tone, and then string that together in a sentence with all of the above.

 

Bringing all this together to make fluid speech is difficult. Don't over-focus on individual words anymore, focus on strings of ideas.

 

To answer your question:

On 2/9/2018 at 3:59 PM, Tøsen said:

Are other people having the same probem. If not, any advice?

Most all of us are having this problem, but we'll still give you advice!

 

I agree with @Tomsima in recording the voice. Do this on repeat. Pick a sentence and get it to perfection. When you're practicing, focus on feeling what muscles in your mouth are unnecessarily tense or noticing when you're jutting your jaw forward without any need to. Once you have gone through the process of getting a few sentences spoken smoothly, move up in length. Try to pick texts with a variety of tonal combinations but with words you are familiar with so you can focus on the speech part rather than the meaning part. Some other tools to move you towards fluidity, mark down where the native speaker pauses before you start practicing. Differentiate long pauses and short pauses. Also, but separately, you can note how loud the native speaker is throughout the text. Mark where they raise their voice and soften their voice. Try imitating these aspects of their speech.

 

 

(Edit: fixed 我和喜欢 to 我很喜欢)

[Wippen (inactive)]

10 hours ago, imron said:

Don't expect to get good at a skill that you aren't actively practicing it. 

Actually, in other languages I have had that happening. Just absorbing it and being in the environment was enough. But Mandarin is different I realised early on, thinking this was going to be relatively easy

 

3 hours ago, 艾墨本 said:

You've got the actually muscles at work

Thanks for this. I had not considered "muscle memory" in language learning but your idea has prompted me to rethink that. Also thanks for the long post which I re-read several times as it contains some really useful advice.

 

3 hours ago, 艾墨本 said:

Pick a sentence and get it to perfection.

Agree. When I read stuff I am looking for sentences that I myself would like to re-use as I can see this particular sentence as being high-frequency and useful.

 

3 hours ago, 艾墨本 said:

while the "central word" is spoken with emphasis

Thanks for this. Now you mention that, I think you are right. It is interesting that Russian for example also do this but because of their flexible word order they are able to do the emphasis on specific word leading to  different emphasis (and often sounds more melodious).

 

10 hours ago, imron said:

reading and writing were completely different skills

This realisation I found frustrating. You can read something and then if you want to rewrite it, you realise you cannot just write it out. Is that to do with different brain parts? In any case I am finding remembering how to write hanzi is the hardest part. I am able to just very roughly remember what a hanzi contains and then not precisely where stuff go. Whereas for each hanzi i can recall very accurately which tone each hanzi is.

 

10 hours ago, imron said:

SRS shouldn't drive your learning process. 

In my opinion SRS is very passive. It trains passive vocabulary more than anything. what do you think?

 

15 hours ago, Tomsima said:

But its also not 一蹶不振!

Loved that riposte!

 

15 hours ago, Tomsima said:

I said 加糖 as jia1 tang1 and was met with confusion as the hotpot already had enough 湯. But at least I know why I automatically said two firsts: from listening to my recordings of myself everyday I've found I'm really comfortable with a 1st-1st contour, but 1st-2nd always makes me hesitate.

Glad you mentioned this example. i have a similar problem with 4-1. So I recently said 目标 as 2-1 though I know the word very well. I feel embarrassed  just to be making that type of errors but knowing others have similar problems is a bit soothing. like 鸡汤。:-)

 

I recently received a piece of advice from a Chinese mandarin linguistics graduate. He explained that in a word that contains two or more of the same second or fourth tone, the final syllable is slightly longer. eg 2-2 (or 2-2-2)  or 4-4 (or 4-4-4) the final one would be longer.  奥运会 (会 is slightly longer) 银行 ( 行 is slightly longer). I appreciated that information since that improved that small aspect of speech

 

 

 

[Flickserve]

18 hours ago, Tøsen said:

Isn't it weird that I can know the tones but still say it wrong.

 

Definitely not. Should be pretty good. 

 

6 hours ago, 艾墨本 said:

where to add stress (beyond just the tone)? Do you stress the primary noun or the conjunction? Turns out in Chinese, and in contrast to English, conjunctions are spoken lightly while the "central word" is spoken with emphasis.

 

I hadn't realised this. Although I speak fairly slowly, make mistakes and have limited vocabulary, I get native speakers speaking at me like at normal speeds with even with just voice call. It happens now with Mandarin (and Cantonese). They even say I don't sound like a foreigner learning Chinese. 

 

I concluded there is some quality in my speech which triggers some assumption that I am at a much higher level. It might be this.

 

2 hours ago, Tøsen said:

He explained that in a word that contains two or more of the same second or fourth tone, the final syllable is slightly longer. eg 2-2 (or 2-2-2)  or 4-4 (or 4-4-4) the final one would be longer.  奥运会 (会 is slightly longer) 银行 ( 行 is slightly longer)

 

I just copy speaking it. Never really thought about it. 

[imron]

2 hours ago, Tøsen said:

Actually, in other languages I have had that happening.

Probably because you were using skills that you have developed already from your native language that were directly applicable. 

 

Tones are one of those things that are likely completely different from any language you've learnt before and so you need to train saying them (in sentences, not just in isolation) until it becomes second nature.  Just knowing about them doesn't help with the production (see above about Tiger Wood's golf swing).

 

2 hours ago, Tøsen said:

You can read something and then if you want to rewrite it, you realise you cannot just write it out. Is that to do with different brain parts?

It's to do with active vs passive recall.  With passive recall (reading) you are shown something and need to recognise it.  With active recall (writing) you start with nothing and have to remember the whole thing from scratch.  Recognising something is a much easier skill than remembering something from nothing because you already have something to hook your memory on.

 

2 hours ago, Tøsen said:

It trains passive vocabulary more than anything. what do you think?

I think SRS often fails to train vocabulary to the standard required to be able to use it in a real world situation.  Take reading for example.  To read well, you need to recognise most words instantly and without hesitation - otherwise the process is incredibly off-putting.   Not to many people would fail a card if they pause briefly before getting it all correct, and yet they should be failing it if they want to be able to use the word to the level required by reading, because pausing briefly before each word when reading is not conducive to reading.  What this means is that many decks of 'learnt' words are only half-learnt cards.  What's more, because it's very easy to see 'progress' using an SRS (card stats going up) it feels like study - even if not so much useful progress is being made.  Finally, there is the false promise of remembering everything forever that keeps people tied to flashcard revisions, even at the expense of more useful study, because of the feeling that you can't abandon a deck without forgetting everything in it.  This is nonsense (for reasons I've outlined elsewhere), but review-queue dread and a fear of missing out is a common thing.

 

So, SRS should be used mostly as a secondary activity.  It should not take up the bulk of your study time and it should be used as a supplement to learning from other materials - e.g. you should be finding vocab from usage (including usage in a textbook you are working on if that is the only material available) and adding it to SRS, not using pre-made decks of vocab for your main source of new vocab.

[Wippen (inactive)]

23 minutes ago, imron said:

Tones are one of those things that are likely completely different from any language you've learnt before

I think tones can be compared to intonation/accent/prosody of a language. This is an area that is not taught that well or even emphasised when learning a new language. So for example if you are learning French you are not necessarily taught to use the intonation in the way French people use it. The focus is on correct pronunciation of words and letters, but not the "melody" French people are using. If we were taught to mimic the accent of a language as being a separate feature to learn, I think students would learn to listen to the language with that similar "tone ear" that we use in Mandarin. 

 

Children learning a new language by immersion in the school yard probably mimic quite accurately because other children are very unforgiving when it comes to anything that is "different". That includes not sounding exactly the same as the native children. So they will pick up on the accent very quickly.

 

@imron  Thanks for the explanation on the passive recall and also the SRC.Your points sound right.

[Wippen (inactive)]

1 hour ago, imron said:

Not to many people would fail a card if they pause briefly before getting it all correct, and yet they should be failing it if they want to be able to use the word to the level required by reading, because pausing briefly before each word when reading is not conducive to reading

Also reading aloud is a separate skill to reading comprehension.  ´If you ask someone to read aloud they are practicing pronunciation and not comprehension at the same time. So if you give a student a new text and ask that student to start reading aloud, the student would focus on pronunciation. After reading aloud he may not understand the material.  It is important to regards these skills separately. I am saying this, as often in China, students are asked to read aloud English texts thinking they are practicing comprehension.

[陳德聰]

6 hours ago, Tøsen said:

I think tones can be compared to intonation/accent/prosody of a language.

Except that they’re not really comparable at all. Also Mandarin has both tone and intonation/accent/prosody.

[Flickserve]

12 hours ago, Tøsen said:

You can read something and then if you want to rewrite it, you realise you cannot just write it out

 

Hmm, it's the same with exams in your own native language. Reading a topic doesn't mean you can answer a question either verbally or written straight away.....which is why we get past papers and practice how to answer exam questions.

[艾墨本]

10 hours ago, Tøsen said:

I think tones can be compared to intonation/accent/prosody of a language. This is an area that is not taught that well or even emphasised when learning a new language. So for example if you are learning French you are not necessarily taught to use the intonation in the way French people use it. The focus is on correct pronunciation of words and letters, but not the "melody" French people are using. If we were taught to mimic the accent of a language as being a separate feature to learn, I think students would learn to listen to the language with that similar "tone ear" that we use in Mandarin. 

 

Interesting you use French as an example, since the way syllables are split are in stark difference to English and Putonghua. French being syllable timed 音节型节奏 while English and Putonghua are stress timed 音步型节奏 ( @Angelina for a linguist to double check this) meaning the earlier assigns the same stress to each syllable while emotion is mainly shown in the final bit of a sentence while in the latter emotion can be shown in stressing most any of the words. So in Putonghua we can say 我很喜欢吃苹果 and throw stress on a variety of words to affect meaning. This is intonation, which is drastically different than tones.

 

You are right that learning the "melody" of a language is important for this reason but wrong to compare tones to intonation. Intonation changes the emotional content of a word while tones change the dictionary meaning of a word. So 我很喜欢吃苹果 will have the same tones regardless of your intonation, but your 我 might get elongated to express that you are talking about yourself and perhaps in context you are contrasting that it is not some person other than you. This is intonation. While changing the 我 to a second tone would be wrong as you have affected the meaning of that word. This is a tone change. (note: there are systemic tone changes lake those mentioned in my previous post)

 

 

As for reading aloud to practice a language, I agree, but only partially. If you are so familiar with a text that you can comfortably read it out loud, then you can shift to focus on meaning. I've been working on shadowing a few texts from an HSK 6 workbook. At first the sole goal was getting down shadowing it but now that I am familiar with the text my mind is also able to think about the meaning of the words and at times realizing some useful pairings within the text while reading it. Repetition is necessary for this.

 

 

As an aside: The classic methods of teaching a language (I.e. grammar translation) have their merits and often help students reach the goal of learning a language, it's just that they often negatively impact a students motivation to study the language, which is arguably the most important factor in language learning. Stifle motivation and any method will fail. Inspire motivation and any method can succeed. The question then becomes what teaching methods can inspire motivation. Sitting in class, repeating after the teacher, is terribly boring, while activities that give you the opportunity to productively use the language can be inspiring. "Look what i can do using this foreign language!" Hopefully, it inspires the student to go home and read that text out loud enough times that they can focus on meaning over pronunciation, which is no longer a task that requires a teacher in the age of recordings and internet.

 

Edit: if you are interested in reading more about what you are referring to with learning the melody of a language, this is usually what people point to (myself included) when they say don't look at words but rather ideas/sentences/paragraphs. It's covered wonderfully the Celce-Murcia's The Grammar Book and can be read about by searching in Chinese for 句段 while others will use 篇段 （or was it 篇章段？)

[歐博思]

22 hours ago, 艾墨本 said:

There is so much more to saying the right tone that just knowing what it is, especially due to how much influence surrounding tones have on each other.

 

It's like riding an elevator in an elevator on a mine cart, with things appearing different ways depending on how you feel.

[Wippen (inactive)]

5 hours ago, 艾墨本 said:

but wrong to compare tones to intonation

 

My initial point was not perhaps not clear. I understand the tones are used to convey lexical information. We do not have that in the European languages generally. However, we do have other aural signals including the items mentioned above (prosody, accent etc). These signals may convey emotions as you point out They may also convey questions and some languages rely on intonation to convey this point. The latter is taught in languages like Spanish, but mostly just briefly. This is not part of a language test. My point is if we were taught to listen out for aural signals in a language you are learning and taught this as a separate entity and with similar emphasis to grammar or pronunciation say, we would be much more tuned into listening to the full sounds of that target language. This emphasis on listening as used for more than just lexical content, is comparable to the listening decoding skills required for tone recognition. It is just that learning western languages do not include much teaching on intonation, prosody etc so we miss out on training the ear for subtle aural cues. This aural training would have been useful when we start learning tones in Mandarin. That is my comparison.

 

5 hours ago, 艾墨本 said:

reading aloud to practice a language

My comment only relates to an unseen text.