georjungcocaine Posted February 20, 2018 at 10:16 PM Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 at 10:16 PM Could somebody please explain what the following statement means, if possible paraphrasing and adding examples? "hao de pengyou" is grammatical when used contrasting hao to huai in "huai de pengyou" ‘bad friends’ that is perhaps not lexicalized. pag. 375 of the Oxford Handbook of Chinese Linguistics The author is contrasting the grammatical *hen hao de pengyou* vs *hao de pengyou. In a different article, the author alternatively proposes for hao de pengyou the meaning such as 'a friend of good influence', but I do not quite get this second one either, could sb. please elaborate on 'a friend of good influence'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwq Posted February 22, 2018 at 01:21 PM Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 at 01:21 PM Let's say you have a son who is a student. I suppose you would consider a friend of his "huai de pengyou" if he is a bad influence, like teaching your son to smoke, gamble or do drugs. "hao de pengyou" would be the opposite of that, someone that give your son good influence, like helping him with his homework, introducing him to new subjects, or making him interested in sports, those kinds of things. I am also guessing the author is trying to contrast "hao" as appearing in "hen hao de pengyou" (In the sense very 'good' (= very 'close') friend), and the above ("hao" as the opposite of "huai"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georjungcocaine Posted February 22, 2018 at 01:32 PM Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 at 01:32 PM 9 minutes ago, dwq said: "hen hao de pengyou" (In the sense very 'good' (= very 'close') friend), What about the contrast hao *(de) pengyou "good friend"? Secondly, could hao pengyou mean "close/good friend"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwq Posted February 22, 2018 at 02:45 PM Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 at 02:45 PM Let's see if I understand your question correctly. I took a look at the link you provided, and the author was talking about the grammar of "de". I must say I have no background in linguistics, so I cannot explain 'why', I can only tell you what I've seen used (or not) in real life. "hao pengyou" does mean 'close/good friend'. The linked book first says "hao de pengyou" is not grammatical, and indeed I've never seen it used in this sense. It then added that an editor pointed out "hao de pengyou" is grammatical when used as the other meaning i.e. the opposite of "huai de pengyou", and I agree. (Not sure about the meaning of "that is perhaps not lexicalized" part.) It is when you qualify with "hen" / "zui" that "hao pengyou" becomes "hen hao de pengyou" / "zui hao de pengyou", and I've never seen those without "de". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwq Posted February 22, 2018 at 03:46 PM Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 at 03:46 PM Oops, I thought "grammatical" means "correctness", but I was wrong. I checked the link again and it seemed that the author is talking about the continuum from "lexical nouns" to "grammatical phrases" (page. 372). Quote "hao de pengyou" is grammatical when used contrasting hao to huai in "huai de pengyou" ‘bad friends’ that is perhaps not lexicalized. I guess lexicalize means going up that continuum (transitioning from grammatical/phrase-like/"de" necessary, to lexical/word-like/no use of "de"). The book first says "hao pengyou" is word-like and "do not allow simple phrasal modification *hao de pengyou", I think the author was thinking of the first meaning ('good/close friend'). I'm not sure "grammatical" in the quote means "grammatically correct", referring to marking the phrase with * earlier, or means "phrase-like". So I think the quote means either of the following: (a) "hao de pengyou" is correct when used as the meaning ' the opposite of "huai de pengyou" '. When used like this, it is perhaps not lexicalized so it takes a "de". (b) "hao de pengyou" is phrase-like when used as the meaning ' the opposite of "huai de pengyou" '. When used like this, it is perhaps not lexicalized so it takes a "de". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messidor Posted February 23, 2018 at 04:36 PM Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 at 04:36 PM 1. it means the phrase 好的朋友 is certainly grammatical, however, it's unacceptable to use this phrase alone unless it is used in contrast with 坏的朋友 (yes they must be juxtaposed in the same context). 好的朋友 is a phrase that usually means friends with good influence (and it's much less common that it means close friends, unless there is very special context; a more common term is 好朋友, and this one looks really like a single word). 坏的朋友 usually means only friends with bad influence. I have never heard people use this phrase to refer to not-very-close friend… to sum up: 好朋友 close friends 普通朋友/点头之交 just acquaintance 好的朋友/坏的朋友 friends with good/bad influence; rarely heard; unacceptable unless they are juxtaposed. 2. in linguistics (esp. syntax), there are several marks that indicate the grammaticality/acceptability, * ungrammatical/unacceptable ? perhaps grammatical/somewhat acceptable # grammatical/acceptable, but it's strange/unnatural/rare… ∅no mark, the sentence is mostly or completely grammatical & acceptable. btw, the contrastive structure is not usually taken as a good tool.(I don't think the author has claimed more than this structure can guarantee. I'll edit this post if it's incorrect when I'm back to school so I can download the paper … if I will have so much free time to read it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georjungcocaine Posted February 23, 2018 at 07:19 PM Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 at 07:19 PM 2 hours ago, Messidor said: a more common term is 好朋友 Thnx so much for the thorough answer. In a different article, the author asserts the following, which I think has some necessary typo in it "It may be all right to use 好的朋友, meaning ‘a friend who can bring some positive influence/benefits.’ But it does not mean ‘a good friend’, as 好朋友 a good friend can be a bad friend 坏朋友" BTW, do you know where I could find semantic info about both adjectives, specifically semantic restrictions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messidor Posted February 24, 2018 at 01:13 AM Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 at 01:13 AM 6 hours ago, georjungcocaine said: Thnx so much for the thorough answer. In a different article, the author asserts the following, which I think has some necessary typo in it "It may be all right to use 好的朋友, meaning ‘a friend who can bring some positive influence/benefits.’ But it does not mean ‘a good friend’, as 好朋友 a good friend can be a bad friend 坏朋友" BTW, do you know where I could find semantic info about both adjectives, specifically semantic restrictions? I guess that except means 好的朋友=a friend with good influence≠好朋友=a close friend 坏的朋友=坏朋友=a friend with bad influence ⇔ (antonym) 好的朋友 thus 好朋友 and 坏朋友 can refer to the same person cus one can have a close friend who has bad influence. (still I'm not so sure since I can't read those papers) sorry I don't know any handbook, guidebook or reference book of semantic selectional restriction. if you are looking for info about specific adjs, I guess there are only papers to read… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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