April Little Poetry Reading Challenge

[edelweis]

I'd like to propose a tiny little poetry reading challenge for this April.

 

Simple rules:

1) Read a Chinese poem in Chinese or in translation, post the title and author.

Add anything you like (full poem text, link, your translation, your thoughts, mp3, link to art inspired by this poem, whatever).

Discuss if you want.

2) Repeat the next day with another poem if you want (hop on and off at will), until the end of the month.

 

(Note: there used to be a grand poetry memorization project with loftier goals, if you're interested).

[edelweis]

Author: 刘禹锡

Poem: 秋词 

 

The first two links have English translation and short commentary (same on both pages)

http://chinese.cn/culturecollection/WX/zggs/article/2011-09/16/content_285412.htm

https://cn.hujiang.com/new/p191056/

https://baike.baidu.com/item/秋词二首/2877106?fromtitle=秋词&fromid=75943

 

Edit: so apparently most Chinese poets find Autumn lugubrious.

I like Autumn. Best season of the year.

[Luxi]

Like! 

Here's a poem by the Song Dynasty poet  Mei Yaochen, 梅尧臣 (1002-1060) 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mei_Yaochen
https://baike.baidu.com/item/梅尧臣

He specialised in poems about the everyday, the ordinary. His poems are simple, pedestrian, and that gives them a certain rare charm. He wrote some very moving verses on the death of his wife, and later his son. 

 

This is one I like a lot. It's sad, but  it celebrates the life of his cat , Five White (五白) - I can relate to this. The translation isn't mine, both translation and poem are from this site:

http://www.chinese-poems.com/myc5.html

 

Sacrifice to the Cat that Scared all the Rats

 

When I had my Five White cat,
The rats did not invade my books.
This morning Five White died,
I sacrifice with rice and fish.
I see you off in the middle of the river,
I chant for you: I won't neglect you.
Once when you'd bitten a rat,
You took it crying round the yard.
You wanted to scare all the rats,
So as to make my cottage clean.
Since we came on board this boat,
On the boat we've shared a room.
Although the grain is dry and scarce,
I eat not fearing piss or theft.
That's because of your hard work,
Harder working than chickens or pigs.
People stress their mighty steeds, 
Saying nothing's like a horse or ass.
Enough- I'm not going to argue,
But cry for you a little

 

众鼠惊祭猫  

自有五白猫
鼠不侵我书
今朝五白死
祭与饭与鱼
送之於中河
咒尔非尔疏
昔尔啮一鼠
衔鸣绕庭除
欲使众鼠惊
意将清我庐
一从登舟来
舟中同屋居
糗粮虽其薄
免食漏窃余
此实尔有勤
有勤胜鸡猪
已矣莫复论
为尔聊郗歔

 

[edelweis]

17 minutes ago, Luxi said:

鼠不侵我书

I wonder how many Chinese books were eaten by rats.

20 minutes ago, Luxi said:

五百

=> 五白?

 

Thanks for this poem, I had no idea there were Song poems about cats.

[Luxi]

Yes, it is  白 of course! Will correct now. Thanks!

There are many Song Dynasty cat paintings, I think cats became quite fashionable then. They were a very civilised lot the Song.

PS: I thought about this poem because last week I discovered the mice have been gnawing my old Chinese books - even though I have a cat! 

[edelweis]

14 hours ago, Luxi said:

the mice have been gnawing my old Chinese books

The horror

 

 

After Autumn, I thought I'd check what 刘禹锡 has to say about Spring.

But 春词 does not seem to comment directly on the season as in 秋词

It's a response to a poem by another poet, which I guess I'll have to check out next, if I can find it.
 

This link has traditional characters and English translation:

http://wengu.tartarie.com/wg/wengu.php?l=Tangshi&no=281

This link has Zhuyin if you're into that:

http://cls.lib.ntu.edu.tw/300/bin/ti_brow.asp?auid=000065&id=00000297

Simplified Chinese text and commentary...

http://www.baike.com/wiki/春词

[Luxi]

Sort of nice in a light way, but you're right, doesn't say much about Spring.

The 朱 樓 reminds me of the 红楼 of 红楼梦, but does she come down from the women's quarters or from the bridal chamber? [Edit: the explanation in the Baike wiki page makes it clear - I wouldn't have seen all that from the poem alone!]

 

I don't quite understand:

 NT鎖 春 光 一 院 愁

I'm not sure this translation is right: "Into her courtyard, enclosure of spring.... 。"

 

The translation of
蜻 飛 上 玉 搔 頭 。

as "On her hairpin of jade a dragon-fly poises" doesn't feel right either.  "Poise" seems too lame  for a dragonfly landing on one's head, dragonflies  are heavy and prickly bugs, they get entangled in one's hair and scratch one's head.

 

 

[edelweis]

18 hours ago, Luxi said:

I'm not sure this translation is right

Well, I'm far from a level where I'd be able to read the Chinese poem and understand it, never mind translate it.

So I relied on the English translation...

Now I've fumbled my way through the baike article too.

Good news for me is, it contains the original poem by 白居易.

And also a bunch of explanation of both poems, quite interesting and rather more complex than the Bynner translation suggested.

Although "When she tries" does suggest that everything is not going the way she wants.

18 hours ago, Luxi said:

"Poise" seems too lame  for a dragonfly landing on one's head

Never had one of those buggers anywhere near me, fortunately...

 

Some articles about the poem by Bai Juxi:

Simplified, with commentary

https://baike.baidu.com/item/春词/35287?fr=aladdin

https://so.gushiwen.org/view_22979.aspx

Unfortunately I did not find a translation or a version with pinyin.

[Luxi]

2 hours ago, edelweis said:

a level where I'd be able to read the Chinese poem and understand it

 

If ever there was an incentive   !

I've been studying Chinese for more years than I can remember and even did a college module on Tang poems and various classes in moocs, but still can't understand just by reading. To get to that level takes quality time, persistence and hard work -  all things that I lack. 'Reading' a poem may take me at least a whole day . One needs to rely on commentaries and background studies: the poems are full of allusions to history, legends, traditional culture, other poems and poets, sages, contemporaneous events, you name it.

I prefer not to rely on translations, at least not as first resource, even though some translators are very good. It's best to go through the Chinese commentaries - those Baike Wiki pages seem good and clear.

 

I think  the translation in the tartarie page completely misses the point. By ignoring 深 锁 and  愁 in “Into her courtyard, enclosure of spring....” the translator has removed most of the meaning from the poem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Luxi]

I chose "Spring Dawn" (春晓) by Meng Haoran (孟浩然), another Tang poet, because it is a good starter for most levels from advanced beginners on.

 

The poem is the first in the compilation that @slowrabbit(a member of this Forum) published in Amazon for her kids. Discussed in this thread.

 

春晓
孟浩然

春眠不觉晓，处处闻啼鸟。
夜来风雨声，花落知多少。

 

Here's a page with the original, notes and commentary 

http://www.exam58.com/tmhrsj/765.html

 

Translation, pinyin and 繁体:

https://eastasiastudent.net/china/classical/meng-haoran-spring-dawn/

This is a very good translation, though I disagree with 'crowing' for 啼. Crowing refers specifically to the sounds crows make, quite unlike the melodious tweetings of birds one hears in early Spring. I'm sure Meng Haoran is referring to what we call 'birdsong' in English, poss. 啼啭 in modern Hanzi. The translation should use 'birdsong' (N) or 'birds singing' (V).

 

Although the poem is very simple and direct, the 作品鉴赏 (Poem Appreciation) section on this page:  

https://baike.baidu.com/item/春晓/31425  

is a full essay on the 'whole experience' (整体赏析 ). Possibly OTT in this case, but I like the way it analyses the poem to extract every nuance, and brings up allusions from past poems and  work from later poets. Good training exercise...
...and a surprising discovery: just to have a quick look I pasted this essay on Google Translate, and got a decent English translation. Apart from a few quirks, like "The ostrich everywhere..." for "Birds singing everywhere" (added by a prankster?), this translation must have been edited by humans. 

 

Last but not least, this will help memorise the poem :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zQ4v8KS1AE

[Guest realmayo]

Nice choice,  but I wonder about 啼, I'd have to have read a lot more to know the difference between 啼 and, say, 鸣 but I get the feeling that 啼 usually has more of a 'shrieking' or 'calling-out' or disorderly sense?

[Luxi]

1 hour ago, realmayo said:

I wonder about 啼

A tricky one. I see your point, the sound is noisy, all birds singing simultaneously and squabbling over mates and nesting spaces. Not altogether harmonious, but it has sweet tones and each note is lovely, like this:

 

https://soundcloud.com/listeningearth/dawn-chorus-scandinavia-sample

 

I think most English speakers would associate crowing either with the cawing of crows (the sound of a Winter morning to me), or a rooster's screech. Not quite what Meng Haoran is describing. . . I'd like to use 'a cacophony of birdsong' but it's too long. Maybe something like 'Everywhere a riot of birdsong'?

[Guest realmayo]

I agree that crow is too specific in English. Unless of course there's a convention in Tang poetry that 啼 usually refers to crows (unless otherwise mentioned).

[edelweis]

9 hours ago, Luxi said:

One needs to rely on commentaries and background studies

Yes, I'm starting to understand how it works now...

 

9 hours ago, Luxi said:

I think  the translation in the tartarie page completely misses the point.

Yes. At first I though that a translation by this Mr Bynner would be good enough.

But now I feel like any translation that isn't at least 10x longer than the original, and accompanied by even more copious background/cultural notes, is necessarily flawed

 

This thread should be titled "baike poetry commentary reading challenge"

[edelweis]

6 hours ago, Luxi said:

处处闻啼鸟

oh! I heard (and sang) this line in 邓丽君's song 梦向何处寻

[Luxi]

17 hours ago, realmayo said:

convention in Tang poetry that 啼 usually refers to crows

 

Quite the opposite: 啼 is much wider in meanings than the CED tells in a quick search. See how the 汉英互译 in this dictionary narrows it

from 鸟兽叫：～鸣。～叫。虎啸猿～ 

to : caw　　　crow　　　cry　　　ululate　　　weep loud

based on the CED.

 

The moral of the story is: don't trust the usual Chinese-English dictionaries for Chinese poetry. I think it's better to look for the widest meaning (best on CC dictionaries) and then decide which fits best based on the story the poem is telling or the picture it is describing. 

[Luxi]

15 hours ago, edelweis said:

At first I though that a translation by this Mr Bynner would be good enough.

From his biography, it looks like Mr Brynner studied Chinese less than most of us here have 

[edelweis]

李商隐 - 夜雨寄北

We had a thunderstorm tonight as I was about to 下班.

 

Simplified, with commentary

http://www.baike.com/wiki/《夜雨寄北》

Traditional, with Pinyin and Zhuyin

http://cls.lib.ntu.edu.tw/300/BIN/ti_brow.asp?auid=000018&id=00000124

[Luxi]

Quote

 

《夜雨寄北》
李商隐

君问归期未有期，巴山夜雨涨秋池。
何当共剪西窗烛，却话巴山夜雨时。

 

 

Uh! Do you understand Li Shangyin? I'm always keeping him and Li He 'for later' because they are really difficult, impenetrable in parts.

 

This poem seems to be among Li Shangyin's easiest ones but I wouldn't have understood any of it without the long explanation and background in the Baike wiki page. I  have problems understanding how the commentator comes up with 君 as referring to 'his wife' - I thought 君 was always used for men, even as the pronoun 'you'? Though a concession is made as an afterthought in brackets : "or a friend"

 

There's a translation ("Note on a rainy night to a friend in the North") in this page:

http://www.shigeku.org/xlib/lingshidao/hanshi/lishangyin.htm

...but the translator makes the rain to be with the friend in the North. The opposite of the Baike commentary. Even without knowing where Bashan is, the rain is more likely to be in Sichuan than in Chang'An, surely.

Quote

 

You ask me when I am coming. I do not know. 

I dream of your mountains and autumn pools brimming all night with the rain. 
Oh, when shall we be trimming wicks again, together in your western window? 
When shall I be hearing your voice again, all night in the rain? 

 

 

 

[edelweis]

10 hours ago, Luxi said:

Do you understand Li Shangyin?

Can't say that I do!

 

10 hours ago, Luxi said:

I thought 君 was always used for men, even as the pronoun 'you'?

The baike 君 page says that too... not sure what's going on here...

 

11 hours ago, Luxi said:

I dream of your mountains and autumn pools brimming all night with the rain. 

Uh. Somehow I had convinced myself that the rain was the cause of the delay...