How much immersion is enough?

[Lu]

3 hours ago, vellocet said:

This interaction is viewed by the learner as harmful to her skill by contaminating the immersion environment. I would like to know if there is any scientific basis for this perceived harm, or is it a canard. I suspect that it is but I have no proof.

I think most people would agree that it would be better for the learner's Chinese if she had the opportunity to do the whole interaction in Chinese. Practice is good. In that sense, the learner's progress is 'harmed' by the clerk. Is that what you meant?

I don't think there is any reason to believe that the learner's skills are reduced by an English interaction. She would still have the exact same skills as five minutes earlier, they just have not progressed where they could have.

 

But to get angry at a McDonald's clerk for that reason is pretty idiotic, in my opinion.

[vellocet]

24 minutes ago, Lu said:

Practice is good. In that sense, the learner's progress is 'harmed' by the clerk. Is that what you meant?

 

Is it really harmful to have a 30 second interaction in English?  After all, that breaks the immersion.  I find this very dubious, how damaging can "you want fries with that" be?  How much can be learned from a conversation like this?  But it is held that any interruption in immersion is damaging to the learner.  

[Lu]

23 minutes ago, vellocet said:

How much can be learned from a conversation like this?

Very little, of course. The 'harm' (missing out on practice) exists, but is extremely minimal.

I don't think the 'breaking of immersion' in itself is harmful.

[abcdefg]

When someone talks to me in English here out of the blue, it takes a few seconds to change gears. I'm thinking in Chinese, and it just seems strange to be hearing English and to be expected to respond to it. But of course, I adapt. 

 

Same kind of thing as in @vellocet's example happened to me a couple days ago at a hamburger joint here in Kunming. As I walked up to place my order, someone must have said, "Uh oh, quick, go get Amy. White face on the radar, approaching fast at 2 o'clock." The regular order taker stepped aside and let a new girl do the honors in English. I guessed she had been specially trained to provide that service. Didn't want to embarrass her; didn't want her efforts to be wasted; didn't want Burger King to lose face. So we handled the rest of the process in English. Thanked her and ate my burger. 

 

No harm done, so far as I can tell. 

[Jim]

1 hour ago, vellocet said:

how damaging can "you want fries with that" be?

Could play havoc with a calorie controlled diet! 

Tend to agree with you otherwise. I switch to English these days if someone tries it and it won't get in the way of whatever the point of our interaction is.

[DavyJonesLocker]

9 hours ago, Jim said:

Agree with your other points but while the idea that a whole nation thinks the same or that you can magically become someone you're not is obviously a bit off I do think it's worth getting into the mindset of the language you're trying to speak rather than just using Chinese vocabulary to say what you would have done in English - in the sense that there are modes of expression that suit Chinese that are quite different to English and if you can adopt them so much the better. Bit vague I realise but think you get the point.

 

Yeah i get your point Jim. When I started learning Chinese , my teachers used to tell me this "think like a Chinese person" phrase without any explanation really. It took me a long to to speak even remotely like a native.. Many of my sentences I say, still sound like a direct translation from Chinese to english, nothing grammatically wrong with them just sounds awkward. Is there an opposite to the term Chinglish?. I found that mimicking a native speaker and spending time in social circles is the best way for me, rather than try formally study it. If you actively listen to common phrases you have a tendency to absorb it naturally . Its hard for a beginner as it becomes difficult to break down grammatically.  

 

 A key step if  when you naturally start using particles like 啦  呀 啊  etc

 

 

2 hours ago, vellocet said:

Is it really harmful to have a 30 second interaction in English?  After all, that breaks the immersion.  I find this very dubious, how damaging can "you want fries with that" be?  How much can be learned from a conversation like this?  But it is held that any interruption in immersion is damaging to the learner.  

 

 

I think a lot of us go through this at the start. We are making a real effort to speak Chinese and then the clerk or some other person starts speaking English knowing full well you can understand the Chinese. I put it down to a touch of frustration rather than any negative impact on learning Chinese like you say. i went through this myself, you pack up your life come to a city like Beijing or Shanghai to learn Chinese. Its a big commitment and when you arrive, you find  to your dismay a lot of people insist on speaking English to you.  At the start my partner would constantly revert to English and just say, "you don't know that word in Chinese", which would lead to a bit of tension (my fault) 

 

Now, I am not bothered at all about English or Chinese. I know enough people now to have enough exposure. Some friends don't have a lick of English at all, others have a level of English far better than my Chinese yet they can't be bothered to speak English. Suits me  

 

 

[Flickserve]

4 hours ago, DavyJonesLocker said:

Many of my sentences I say, still sound like a direct translation from Chinese to english, nothing grammatically wrong with them just sounds awkward.

 

I have this in Cantonese. Strangely, when I started learning Mandarin (non perfect) , it sort of reinforced some dormant Cantonese sentence constructions. It resulted in using them actively in speech and Cantonese speakers were commenting my Cantonese had improved without me working on it...

 

I wish my Mandarin was better though. I think I could really do a lot of improvement in an immersive environment for a temporary period.