Use of 得下 (dexià) and 不下 (buxià)

[atitarev]

I posted this question in "A few questions..." topic but it went unnoticed. I am reposting here in hope to get the answer:

The topic of expressing in Chinese of "being able to do something" was addressed, so I thought I'd ask about the usage of 下 in that sense.

我吃不下了! I can't eat any more!

Wǒ chībuxià le!

这个房间只放得下... This room can only hold...

Zhège fángjiān zhǐ fàngdexià...

I found these examples in a textbook and Wenlin translates some combinations correctly but I couldn't find this meaning of 下 in dictionaries. How common is it? Can you use 不下 and 得下 with other verbs meaning - be able, be unable to do something?

[fenlan]

Atitarev, there are directional complements that have a, well, directional meaning, and then there are extended meanings. There are similar to the way English appends "up" "down" "on" "off" and other prepositions to verbs, with a lot of extended meanings.

Write it down: 写下来- this seems pretty clear to an Englsih speaker, as we say "down" too, so the "下来" seems pretty direction in meaning.

A more odd example from chapter 1 of book 3 of Practical Chinese Reader is "决定不下来", to not make a decision, or be unable to make a decision.

起来 has extended meanings relating to suddenly starting to do something. To burst into tears: 哭起来. On the trains I refused to take part in the exercises the guard wanted everyone to do, and so she said, "作起来" (or was it the other zuo4?) - meaning "do it". You have to compare 起来 with all the English phrases ending in "up".

开- this is similar to "out" in English, but I don't have a list of examples at my finger tips. If you want to ask if someone can give change for a 100 yuan note, you can ask 找得开吗？

There are others too, you need to look in a grammar book for "extended meanings of directional resultative complements" or something like that.

[atitarev]

Thanks, Fenlan. I have some info on directional usage but not much on can/can't using 下.

[chenpv]

while this is a question that i am not clear myself , maybe this character is too common to be noticed. But i look it up for you guys. i believe 下 here is a verb showing the direction.

"作起来" (or was it the other zuo4?)

yes, fenlan, its another zuo4 '做'， but their usages in some circumstances are still in debate.

[nipponman]

I found these examples in a textbook and Wenlin translates some combinations correctly but I couldn't find this meaning of 下 in dictionaries. How common is it? Can you use 不下 and 得下 with other verbs meaning - be able, be unable to do something?

These expressions have bothered me for a while. I think there is a similar expression with de/bu lai.

[fenlan]

Atitarev, the can/can't meanings are as I indicated in my post. There is a technical difference between a resultative complement and a potential complement (are these the right words?), but these are extended meanings of teh resultative complement with an addiition "potential" meaning.

na2dedong4 - can lift up

na2budong4 - can't lift up

jue2ding4 buxialai - can't decide

zhao3dekai1 - can change (money)

zhao3bukai1 - can't change

Basic Chinese, by my former lecturers, don rimington and yip po-ching, gives these examples:

kan4dejian4 - can see

kan4bujian4 - can't see

shuo1de ming2bai4 - can be explained clearly

wo3zhan4 buqilai - I could not stand up

ta1shuo1 buxiaqule - she could not carry on speaking

wo3mai3buqi3 - I could not afford to buy it

etc

[atitarev]

Thanks to all. I guess, I just needed more examples of the use.

[fenlan]

I'll post a long list tonight from Basic Chinese. lai2deji2, lai2buji2 is also cited in Basic Chinese as an example

[Altair]

我吃不下了! I can't eat any more!

Wǒ chībuxià le!

这个房间只放得下... This room can only hold...

Zhège fángjiān zhǐ fàngdexià...

From what I understand, the syntax of the second expression is completely productive.

Here are some examples from page 407 of A Practical Chinese Grammar by Hung-nin Samuel Cheung:

这个停车场很大、停得下七百辆汽车。 Zhè ge tíngchēchǎng hěn dà, tíng de xià qībǎiliàng qìchē. This parking lot is big; it can hold 700 cars.

这个房间住不下四个人。 Zhè ge fángjiān zhù bu xià sì ge rén. This room is not big enough for four people (to live in it).

没想到这个礼堂这么大。 …坐得下一万人吗? Méi xiǎngdào zhè ge lǐtáng zhème dà. Zuò de xià yíwàn rén ma? I never thought that this auditorium would be so huge. **** Can it hold ten thousand people?

I actually question whether 吃不下 (chī bu xià) involves the same idiom. A Practical Chinese Grammar lists it with the above expressions, but says earlier that 吃不下 refers more to appetite than capacity. The book contrasts 吃不下 with 吃不了. Here are three examples:

你今天叫的菜多了、我真的吃不了。 Nǐ jīntiān jiào de cài tài duō le, wǒ zhēn de chī be liǎo. You've ordered too many dishes. I really can't eat all of them.

你今天叫的菜都是肉、我真的吃不下。 Nǐ jīntiān jiào de cài dōu shì ròu, wǒ zhēn de chī be xià. All the dishes you've ordered are meat dishes. I really can't eat them.

我刚吃过饭、我现在真的吃不下。 Wǒ gāng chīguo fàn, wǒ xiànzài zhēn de chī be xià. I just had my meal. I really can't eat any more now.

Can you use 不下 and 得下 with other verbs meaning - be able, be unable to do something?

I think that it is better not to think of these as directly equivalent to "be able or be unable." Such a meaning comes from the syntax of 不 bu and 得 de, not from 下 xià. In general, the complement always adds some kind of meaning or nuance. Sometimes the additional meaning if obvious, but sometimes it is idiomatic, as others have pointed out.

Off hand, the only complement I can think of that might be empty of any additional meaning is 了 liǎo. It seems to be used as a dummy complement, when nothing else is available.

[atitarev]

Thanks for good examples, Altair.

[nipponman]

Thanks Altair, I think I'm starting to understand a bit more these expressions.