British English

[Shelley]

@mungouk i am not sure what you mean, I sometimes think that textbooks are a few years behind the curve of everyday speech. It wouldn't surprise me if this was the case In most languages.

 

 

[mungouk]

Hi @Shelley sorry if I wasn't clear.  "old fashion" is not correct English (of any kind): it should be "old fashioned"

 

What I was pondering was whether there might be something in US English that would contradict this?

[Shelley]

According to google you are correct, I think it was just a typo and not thinking through what I was saying in my head and what I would say out loud. It also needs a hyphen apparently so it should be old-fashioned.

 

A google poll had 865,000,000 hits for what I first wrote (the highest) and the correct way 320,000,000. the lowest.

See here https://itknowledgeexchange.techtarget.com/writing-for-business/old-fashion-or-old-fashioned/

 

Another example of usage not following the rules.?

 

I won't correct my post for continuity.

[mungouk]

No worries @Shelley... I think the English-speaking world/diaspora struggles with this all the time.  Unlike French (for example) there is no single authority deciding what is and what isn't correct.  Which, in my opinion, is how it should be: language is organic and always-changing and belongs to the people who use use it... 

Plus, what we say in our heads, or to our friends, regularly deviates from "proper" usage. It's only when we start to teach English, or have conversations like these, that it even becomes relevant. 
 

[Zbigniew]

2 hours ago, mungouk said:

I can't think of any other use-cases that would make "use" correct.)

"I didn't use to like French".

[mungouk]

2 minutes ago, Zbigniew said:

 

[Shelley]

7 minutes ago, Zbigniew said:

"I didn't use to like French".

 

Would still be used, it is past tense.

I didn't used to like French.

 

This may help https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/30035/i-use-to-or-i-used-to

[NinjaTurtle]

1 hour ago, Shelley said:

I think most of the difference between American English and British English is spelling and different words for the same thing - boot for trunk and so on.

 

Yes, I have found most of the differences to be vocabulary not grammar.

 

2 hours ago, mungouk said:

Well, how would they (students) even know? 

 

They don't. That's why I teach them these things. Most of my students have no idea about the differences between British and American English. And 99.9% are not able to correctly which examples are British and which are American.

 

2 hours ago, mungouk said:

I expect vernacular usage of American English must vary quite a bit across the whole country?

 

I reckon so. I'm fixing to look into this more.

 

1 hour ago, Shelley said:

This sort of English sounds like the sort of Chinese I image I am learning from my text book, slightly old fashion, formal and not used by young people of today.

 

The biggest problem I have learning Chinese is that (it seems to me) the words in a Chinese quite often are not what my students actually say. I will tell them an English word, tell them what I found in the dictionary, and ask them if this is what they actually say. More often than not, it seems like it is something different than what is in a Chinese dictionary!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NinjaTurtle]

2 hours ago, mungouk said:

I don't really see how any of this relates to "Chinglish"

 

It directly relates to Chinglish. They think their Chinglish is correct. It is not. (And they are NOT happy when I point these things out to them.) I once got into a big argument with my Chinese College Dean about the term "Shanghai Normal University". I told her I consider that school name to be Chinglish. (She got mad!)

[Jim]

There is actually an early modern English usage of "use to" which would make your original example correct @NinjaTurtle but it's been outdated for a few hundred years and I'm too lazy to show examples. In Shakespeare IIRC.  Works a bit like 'practice' in Walter Scott's "O what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive".

As to choosing to go to Japan, I'd be more likely to say something like, "I can really recommend Japan..." and most likely not use 'recommend' at all. I did think part of the problem with your student's example was the extra 'to' introducing a confusion between whether a person is being recommended or a place.

[mungouk]

1 hour ago, Shelley said:

1 hour ago, Zbigniew said:

 

...

 

*tried to delete reply... system didn't like it*

 

 

 

[Zbigniew]

3 hours ago, Shelley said:

Would still be used, it is past tense.

I didn't used to like French.

 

This may help https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/30035/i-use-to-or-i-used-to

I'm not sure what you're pointing me to there, Shelley. Nothing on that page seems to corroborate what you're saying regarding this point.

 

In fact, both "didn't use to" and "didn't used to" are well attested, but the style guides/grammars, probably for reasons of logic, still recommend the former:

 

"There is sometimes confusion over whether to use the form used to or use to, which has arisen largely because the pronunciation is the same in both cases. Except in negatives and questions, the correct form is used to: we used to go to the park all the time, not we use to go to the park all the time. However, in negatives and questions using the auxiliary verb do, the correct form is use to, because the form of the verb required is the infinitive: I didn't use to like mushrooms, not I didn't used to like mushrooms."

See also:

Oxford English Grammar

[NinjaTurtle]

3 minutes ago, Zbigniew said:

Except in negatives and questions, the correct form is used to: we used to go to the park all the time, not we use to go to the park all the time. However, in negatives and questions using the auxiliary verb do, the correct form is use to, because the form of the verb required is the infinitive: I didn't use to like mushrooms, not I didn't used to like mushrooms."

 

It is fascinating to see these differences between British English and American English.

[Zbigniew]

3 minutes ago, NinjaTurtle said:

It is fascinating to see these differences between British English and American English.

I think you've misunderstood; afaik, my comments apply equally to both American and Br. English.

[NinjaTurtle]

37 minutes ago, Zbigniew said:

my comments apply equally to both American and Br. English.

 

I (an AmE speaker) would not use, "I didn't use to like mushrooms," I would use, "I didn't used to like mushrooms." I see this as a difference between American English and British English.

 

[陳德聰]

I find these kind of pedantic discussions super amusing. I stand by what I said about being more familiar with your own language, so that you know when variants exist within your own variety, as opposed to having to assume everything you feel is non-standard is a different regional English.

 

Grammatically speaking, “didn’t used to” is equivalent to “didn’t went” or “didn’t had” or “didn’t ate.” Most English varieties don’t really like to put tense inflection on more than one verb in a clause, and doing so usually marks you as less educated in the way a word like “irregardless” does. But that doesn’t mean people don’t speak this way. Your students are grown up enough to be able to appreciate that there’s a difference between the way people use language in daily life and the way people are expected to use language in formal settings.

 

In my (Canadian English speaker) mind, you can not have “didn’t used to” unless you believe the infinitival form is “used” and not “use.”

 

But that’s not even really the point. The point is that your students are looking to you to be someone who can get the answers they need.

 

If you are an American teaching English in China, you should be upfront about it with your students and let them know that there are usage differences between your brand of English and British English.

 

It’s also wise to remember that unless they intend to continue schooling in the US, they will likely be taking the IELTS exam to go literally anywhere else in the world. So communicate with them about their goals and expectations rather than trying to become AmE/BrE bilingual, when AmE/Chinese bilingual would be much more practical.

[Hofmann]

If you're a teacher, it's perfectly fine to say that you've never heard a certain way of saying something, so you aren't sure if it's correct somewhere. If you're clear about where you're from and what you're teaching, then they can decide if they're OK with learning the variety that you teach. I'd imagine most students will not have a problem with that, and if they do, they can seek a teacher that speaks the exact variety they want to learn.

 

Of course, knowing your own variety very well is also beneficial.

[mouse]

8 hours ago, NinjaTurtle said:

I once got into a big argument with my Chinese College Dean about the term "Shanghai Normal University". I told her I consider that school name to be Chinglish. (She got mad!)

 

You are incorrect. Fashions have changed in the English-speaking world, and "Normal" is often not used in names for schools and universities these days. But it is not incorrect nor Chinglish. It's a perfectly sensible translation of 师范.

[陳德聰]

Perhaps your desire to call everything Chinglish rubs people the wrong way because you seem to be overapplying it.

[NinjaTurtle]

2 hours ago, 陳德聰 said:

Perhaps your desire to call everything Chinglish rubs people the wrong way because you seem to be overapplying it.

 

I can see how you would feel that way. But it must be emphasized that Chinglish is the biggest problem in English education in China today. It is going to take a lot of hard work to remove Chinglish from China, and that is exactly what I am doing. I do not feel that applying the term Chinglish to "normal school" is an over application. I have a zero tolerance for Chinglish in my classroom and that is how it should be. (I tell them everyday, "I do not speak Chinglish, I speak English.") Chinese parents are willing to pay extra money for native English teachers, and this is a good example of why.

 

3 hours ago, mouse said:

But it is not incorrect nor Chinglish.

 

I disagree. The term "normal school" disappeared from American English and British English early last century. (The term also existed in French early last century but has also disappeared from French.) The fact that it is a term in English that is only used in China qualifies it as Chinglish. If you ask any high school student in America or England if they are considering going to a normal school after they graduate from high school, it is obvious what kind of reaction you will get. And the same goes for any Chinese person who goes to America or England and says they graduated from a 'normal' university in China.