Where to find a standard pinyin pronounciation?

[colcode]

Hi,

 

I'm new to learning Mandarin Chinese, I'm still practicing pinyin and tones, I'm not in a rush to learn Mandarin Chinese as I view it as a fun side project to do when I have free time. So from the beginning I want to master the pronunciation or at least learn common mistakes and try to avoid them as much as possible. 

 

I've been collecting information on how to pronounce each initial and final and it has been great so far as I know how the sounds she be I only need to keep practicing.

 

With that being said, I've found some conflicting information on the web, it seems like each pinyin table pronounce some syllables in a different way. For this reason I can't decide for sure how should I pronounce these syllables, here are the examples that I'm talking about.

 

Before I list the examples of conflicting pronunciation, here are the resources that I'm using, each resources is marked with a number so I can reference it in the examples.

 

[1] https://www.yoyochinese.com/chinese-learning-tools/Mandarin-Chinese-pronunciation-lesson/pinyin-chart-table

[2] https://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/pronunciation/Pinyin_chart

[3] https://chinese.yabla.com/chinese-pinyin-chart.php

[4] https://www.purpleculture.net/chinese-pinyin-chart/

 

Example 1: Yi

[1] pronounce it as "yee". "y" here is similar to "y" in "yes".

[2] pronounce it as "ee".

[3] pronounce it as "ee".

[4] pronounce it as "ee".

However for "bi", "pi" etc, all of the 4 pronunciation rhyme with "ee" and not "yee".

 

Example 2: Ye 

[1] pronounce it as "Ye". "y" here is similar to "y" in "yes" and "e" in the pinyin "e" like "uh".

[2] pronounce it as "eeya". "y" here is similar to "y" in "yes".

[3] pronounce it as "Ye".

[4] pronounce it as "eeya".

 

Example 3:Yin

[1] pronounce it as "Yin", "ye" here is similar to 'y" in "yes"

[2] pronounce it as "ee-n".

[3] pronounce it as "Yin".

[4] pronounce it as "Yin".

 

Example 4: Wo

[1] pronounce it as "Wo". "W" here as in English "Why".

[2] pronounce it as "UO". "U" as in pinyin "U' followed by pinyin "O".

[3] pronounce it as "Wo".

[4] pronounce it as "UO".

 

Example 5: Yuan

[1] pronounce it as "Yuan", "y" as in "yes".

[2] pronounce it as "Yuan"

[3] pronounce it as "Yuan"

[4] pronounce it as "Ü-yan" where "Ü" is as in pinyin "Ü" and "y" as in "yes".

 

Example 6: Üe

[1] pronounce it as "yue", "y" as in "yes".

[2] pronounce it as "Ü-ye". where "Ü" in pinyin "Ü" and "y" as in "yes" and "e" in pinyin "e".

[3] pronounce it as "yue"

[4] pronounce it as "Ü-ye".

 

Example 7: Ün

[1] pronounce it as "Yun", where "y" is as in "yes"

[2] pronounce it as "Ü-Yun", Where "Ü" in pinyin "Ü", "y" in as in "yes".

[3] pronounce it as "Yun"

[4] pronounce it as "Ü-Yun"

 

 

As you can see all the examples above are the pronunciation of a final when it's alone without an initial, however, I've noticed that when two pinyin charts differ in pronouncing a final in isolation, they may also differ when pronouncing a syllable that consists of an initial and that final.

 

I hope you can use the above links and compare the example that I've listed above and let me know which one of the above is using the correct pronunciation. Also if have any other resources for pinyin chart pronunciation that uses standard pronunciation that would be great.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shelley]

Hello and welcome to the forum. I think you might find this link very helpful https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin

 

Although a good grasp of pinyin is helpful, you need to start actually learning Chinese to see fully how it all works. I would try a good text book and work your way through it. I use New Practical Chinese Reader. Have a look at the link at the bottom of this post to see my blog and all the resources I use and how I use them.

[Publius]

None of them is correct. They are all trying to describe in layman's terms how to pronounce a Chinese syllable to an English-speaking audience.

If you want a more linguistically robust description, I recommend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology (you have to familiarize yourself with IPA notations first).

For example,

1) Yi = [i ], spelled 'yi' when syllable-initial, '-i' otherwise.

2) Ye = [je], spelled 'ye' when syllable-initial, '-ie' otherwise.

3) Yin = [in], spelled 'yin' when syllable-initial, '-in' otherwise.

4) Wo = [wo], spelled 'wo' when syllable-initial, '-uo' otherwise (but is written as o after b, p, m, f, so it's 'bo, po, mo, fo' not 'buo, puo, muo, fuo').

5) Yuan = [ɥɛn], spelled 'yuan' when syllable-initial, '-üan' otherwise (but ü is written as u after j, q, x, so it's 'juan, quan, xuan' rather than 'jüan, qüan, xüan').

6) Yue = [ɥe], spelled 'yue' when syllable-initial, '-üe' otherwise (but ü is written as u after j, q, x, so it's 'jue, que, xue' rather than 'jüe, qüe, xüe').

7) Yun = [yn], spelled 'yun' when syllable-initial, '-ün' otherwise (but ü is written as u after j, q, x, so it's 'jun, qun, xun' rather than 'jün, qün, xün').

A footnote:

[j, w, ɥ] are the semivowel version of [i, u, y]. The first two sounds [j] and [w] are familiar to English speakers, e.g. in 'yes' and 'we'. The third mainly exists in French. French 'u' is usually pronounced [y], e.g. tu [ty] 'you'; but becomes a semivowel when followed by a full vowel, e.g. nuit [nɥi] 'night'. Basically the same mechanism in Chinese.

In Chinese, the pinyin letters 'i, u, ü' represent either the vowel [i, u, y] or the semivowel [j, w, ɥ]. But things get a bit crazier when they're combined with the so-called zero initial ∅.

All Chinese syllables are supposed to be formed by an initial (聲母) and a final (韻母). What if there is no initial? In that case, the designers of pinyin decided that you must write 'i, u, ü' as 'y, w, yu' to maintain a semblance of initial. This makes it easier to see the syllable boundaries within a word, e.g. yinyang is obviously [in.jaŋ] not [i.njaŋ]. Problem is, after the conversion, if there is no vowel letters left for the final, then you must put an 'i' or 'u' back. Hence the confusion.

Let me see if this can make it clearer:

1) yi, yin, ying (initial spelling)

=  -i, -in, -ing (final spelling)

= [i ], [in], [iŋ] (pronunciation -- no [j] sound, 'i' is the nucleus, 'y' merely reflects a non-existent initial)

2) ya, yao, yan, yang, yong, ye, you (initial spelling)

= -ia, -iao, -ian, -iang, -iong, -ie, -iu* (final spelling, note the irregularity at *)

= [ja], [jau], [jɛn], [jaŋ], [jʊŋ], [je], [jou] (pronunciation -- 'i' or 'y' is in the medial position, therefore represents a semivowel [j])

3) wu (initial spelling)

= -u (final spelling)

= [u ] (pronunciation -- no [w] sound, 'u' is the nucleus, 'w' merely reflects a non-existent initial)

4) wa, wai, wan, wang, wo, wei, wen, weng (initial spelling)

= -ua, -uai, -uan, -uang, -uo, -ui*, -un*,  N/A (final spelling, note the irregularity at *)

= [wa], [wai], [wan], [waŋ], [wo], [wei], [wən], [wəŋ] (pronunciation -- 'u' or 'w' is in the medial position, therefore represents a semivowel [w])

5) yu, yun (initial spelling)

= -ü, -ün or -u, -un after j, q, x (final spelling)

= [y], [yn] (pronunciation -- 'ü' is the nucleus, 'yu' is just so that foreigners unfamiliar with the language can pronounce it with reasonable approximation)

6) yuan, yue (initial spelling)

= -üan, -üe or -uan, -ue after j, q, x (final spelling)

= [ɥɛn], [ɥe] (pronunciation -- 'ü' is in the medial position, therefore represents a semivowel [ɥ])

[colcode]

Thanks @Publius 

 

I'm already quite familiar with pinyin shortcuts and spelling rules and I know how to pronounce basically all pinyin sounds except for compound finals that start with i,u or ü not because they are difficult but because I couldn't find the standard way to pronounce them. Thanks for referencing the IPA Wiki link, but I prefer listening and imitating standard sound rather than reading the IPA transaction because they are a little bit limited a hard to get correct by a novice like me.

 

I'm not a native English speaker and I'm also familiar with the French language so I have no difficulty pronouncing the pinyin sounds.

 

I know that pinyin "i" sounds like the French "i", "u" sounds like "oo" in English and "ü" sounds like French "u". So I can pronounce syllables like bi, bu bü without any problems.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from your response this is what I understand.

 

For i, u or ü, if it it's not followed by another vowel like here: (-i,-in,-ing,Yi,Yin,Ying) (-u,Wu) (-ü,-ün,Yu,Yun), in all of these cases there is no "y","w",'yu" sounds as in "yes","what" and "yoo" English.

 

When i,u or ü is followed by another vowel like in (-ia,-ie,-iao,-iu,-ian,-iang,-iong,ya,ye,yao,you,yan,yang,yong) (-ua,-uo,-uai,-ui,-uan,-un,-uang,-ueng,wa,wo,wai,wei,wan,wen,wang,weng) (-üe,-üan,yue,yuan), in all of these cases the standard "i",'u" and "ü" sounds are replaced by "y","w" and "yu" sounds as in "yes","what" and "yoo" English.

 

So is my above assumptions are correct?

 

Also, Do you have any pinyin chart with sound that doesn't try to dumb things down? Thank you.

 

Edit

 

Are you sure that üan=[ɥɛn] and üe=[ɥe] ? 

At ChinesePod website they have üan=[yɛn] and üe=[yɛ] ? Here is the Chinesepod source.  Check the "Linguist's Note" at the bottom of the page.

[Hofmann]

If you see an IPA letter on Wikipedia that you don't understand, you can click on it and see a list of examples, including in French, that have the sound.

[mungouk]

I found the pinyin chart at Chinese Pronunciation Wiki useful when I was starting out.

 

(Edit: Ah OK, you already found it.)

 

 

[imron]

23 hours ago, colcode said:

So I can pronounce syllables like bi, bu bü without any problems.

Except of course the problem that bü does not exist as a sound in Mandarin

[colcode]

@mungouk Yeah I already have some resources with pinyin chart, the problem is that they are not in agreement with each other when it comes to some syllables, to be specific, syllables that have a final that is a compound final that starts with (i u or ü). If you are fluent in mandarin Chinese, can you check these pinyin charts and let me know which one is with the standard pronunciation? 

 

[1] https://www.yoyochinese.com/chinese-learning-tools/Mandarin-Chinese-pronunciation-lesson/pinyin-chart-table

[2] https://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/pronunciation/Pinyin_chart

[3] https://chinese.yabla.com/chinese-pinyin-chart.php

[4] https://www.purpleculture.net/chinese-pinyin-chart/

 

@imron That was just an example that I can pronounce syllables that have a (i, u or ü), of course I don't know yet which syllables exist in Mandarin Chinese and which don't as I'm still learning the pronunciation. I want to focus first on perfecting the pronunciation as much as I can from the start, so that any effort that I make in memorizing new words will be memorized with correct pronunciation. 

 

Can you also Check the above links and let me know which one is using the correct standard Mandarin Chinese pronunciation? Otherwise, if you have any resource for pinyin pronunciation That would be great too. I just want some pinyin chart that I can imitate.

 

Thanks all for your help.

 

 

 

[Hofmann]

Yoyo Chinese's /ɥɛn/ final isn't standard. Where else do you hear phonemic differences?

[mungouk]

11 hours ago, colcode said:

If you are fluent in mandarin Chinese, can you check these pinyin charts and let me know which one is with the standard pronunciation? 

 

Above my level I'm afraid!