Cantonese N/L shifts

[Hofmann]

About the n/l thing: the n-to-l switch is characteristic of Hong Kong Cantonese. Since many people assume Hong Kongers pronounce Cantonese correctly, they accept the Hong Kong version as standard. However, the standard distinguishes between n and l: "nei" for 你, "lei" for 里, "naam" for 男, "laam" for 藍, etc.

Edit: Sorry. This was meant as a reply to the thread about Vietnamese. Seems to have been moved. So... I think I'll remove the thing about noun-adjective since it has nothing to do with this topic.

[Quest]

About the n/l thing: the n-to-l switch is characteristic of Hong Kong Cantonese. Since many people assume Hong Kongers pronounce Cantonese correctly, they accept the Hong Kong version as standard. However, the standard distinguishes between n and l: "nei" for 你, "lei" for 里, "naam" for 男, "laam" for 藍, etc.

Again, I would have to disagree here. The n to l switch is not only charactersitc of hongkong cantonese, but of all cantonese in general. I've never heard "乸na" in my life, unless "na" is a different sound than what I think it is. I would really like to hear a sound recording of someone pronouncing "gai na".

I think Hong Kongers are famous for their 懒音, so I don't think "many people assume" it to be the standard.

[atitarev]

Again' date=' I would have to disagree here. The n to l switch is not only charactersitc of hongkong cantonese, but of all cantonese in general. I've never heard "乸na" in my life, unless "na" is a different sound than what I think it is. I would really like to hear a sound recording of someone pronouncing "gai na".

I think Hong Kongers are famous for their 懒音, so I don't think "many people assume" it to be the standard.

Sorry to go off topic, lets focus on grammar.[/quote']

Quest, you have to agree that switch from n to l is pure Hong Kong thing. They mention it in many textbooks on Cantonese. The book "Teach Yourself Cantonese" says that many young people pronounce N as L in Hong Kong but we will teach your the correct way. I am not an expert in Cantonese I just quote what I read. I don't insist it's only the Hong Kong pronunciation. 鸡乸 is romanised as gai1 na2 in Cantonese (Unihan database).

The Red Dragonfly Cantonese input uses N, not L if you want to input NEI. Anyway, it's off-topic.

[Quest]

atitarev, I grew up in Guangzhou and I still have a lot of friends and relatives in Guangzhou, trust me it's not a HongKong only thing. The romanizations often use mandarin as reference, but no one pronounces some of the words "the standard way" anymore. Like I have never heard "na" in my entire life.

[atitarev]

As I said, I don't insist, I only quote. Well, I have audio recordings where they say N, these are on tape, though, I can't reproduce here. They do mention the N/L mix-up and recommend to use N. I read the same in Lonely Planet's Cantonese phrasebook.

I can check for the sake of this discussion, what pronuciation Colloquial Cantonese uses (another textbook with audio on CD).

Well, If a native Cantonese speaker says that the initial N should be pronounced as L, then it become widespread and sort of standard. When you speak Mandarin or English, do you mix N and L? I heard a Cantonese speaker saying Li Hao for Ni Hao and a girl introducing herself as Lalcy (for Nancy) - I am sure she wasn't aware that it sounded like that or maybe Cantonese people can't hear the difference (?).

[Quest]

When you speak Mandarin or English, do you mix N and L?

no.

I heard a Cantonese speaker saying Li Hao for Ni Hao and a girl introducing herself as Lalcy (for Nancy)

Lancy or Lalcy?

[atitarev]

Lancy or Lalcy?

I can't guarantee about the final any more, maybe it was Lancy. In my memory it was Lalcy.

[Quest]

laLcy, L as in aL-abama?? because that would sound really odd.

Also, there's some difference between the Cantonese L and the English L.

[atitarev]

Quest, Lancy sounded pretty odd to me when I knew it should be Nancy but I can't promise it, so let it be Lancy.

[Quest]

Quest, Lancy sounded pretty odd to me when I knew it should be Nancy but I can't promise it, so let it be Lancy.

Odd as in I doubt a Cantonese would say Lalcy. Lancy is pretty common, however, even though their n might not be as nasal as you are accustomed to.

I've made a recording (not my voice), I believe it is the Cantonese way of saying Nancy that you talked about, so is this the Lalcy you heard? The second file is my interpretation of a Cantonese "Lalcy", I doubt anyone woud say it that way.

[geraldc]

Cantonese pronunciation is always a bit funny, Amongst family and friends, I've heard 呢喥 pronounced as nee-do, lee-do, yee-do, and ee-do (apologies for my made up romanization) and no one really complains. You just have to learn which words you can and can't switch l and n on.

[skylee]

I agree with geraldc.

[atitarev]

Thank you Quest. Yes, it was definitely Lancy, not Lalcy.

[xng]

I suggest you guys watch the tvb series 千王之王 for the lead actress pronounciation. Her name is lisa wang. She speaks perfect cantonese, distinguishing "n" and "l" and "gw" and "g". Also youngsters in hong kong nowadays doesn't know the difference between "gwong" and "gong" for 光.

Understandebly because they weren't taught in any standard pinyin. And those sounds sound so similar to each other.

[xng]

Amongst family and friends, I've heard 呢喥 pronounced as nee-do, lee-do, yee-do, and ee-do (apologies for my made up romanization) and no one really complains

geraldc

Pronouncing it differently doesn't mean that it is the right pronounciation. It is just like some chinese pronouncing "rice" as "lice" or germans pronouncing "win" as "vin" or french pronouncing "the" as "de". They were not taught the proper pronounciation as they sound similar.

But the correct pronounciation is "nei dou"

[Quest]

Liza Wang does not speak perfect Cantonese, she speaks without 懒音 but she still has some accent from her Shanghainese background.

[Hofmann]

no one pronounces some of the words "the standard way" anymore

All of my family's Cantonese is almost perfect, I found no surprises looking at the standard romanizations of words. I can think of many other people who pronounce the words "the standard way." You might think of it as being super-conservative, but it's correct and definitely not nonexistant.

[Quest]

Hofman can you make a sound file of 唔知你知唔知嗰五只鸡乸畀你奶奶捉咗去边呢？

[atitarev]

I can't listen right now (from work) but the site below is supposed to give the correct Cantonese pronunciation, just paste a character with an N initial, click on the button and you will get a sound file - it's a good Cantonese dictionary (you can change to an English interface too).

http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/

[Quest]

atitarev, I know how to say "na" or any other cantonese word the "correct" way. I just wanted them to say "gai na" in the hope that they would realize "the correct way" doesn't sound right. If they think it does, I would like to hear their pronunciation. You don't need to teach me Cantonese with skylee's favorite website

PS: I can't find 乸 on that site.