Parsing long sentences

[beirne]

One problem I have when reading Chinese is parsing long sentences. I can unwind things somewhat by using 的 as a hint, but some sentences are beyond my ability to parse. Here is an example from the Wikipedia article on dreams, converted to simplified characters: (http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%A2%A6)

梦中经常能感觉到一些人清醒时不易感觉到的轻微的生理症状，是因人睡眠时来自外界的各种客观事物的刺激相对变小，来自体内的各种客观事物的刺激相对变强引起的。

I tried breaking it out and ended up with this:

梦中经常能感觉到一些人清醒时不易感觉到 - While dreaming one often can be aware of some people's wakefulness it is not easy to be aware of

轻微的 - minor

生理症状 - physical symptoms

是因人睡眠时来自外界的 - is because what shows up when sleeping comes from the outside world

各种客观事物的 - various forms of reality

刺激相对 - stimulate the opposite

变小 - make smaller (what gets made smaller?)

来自体内的 - comes from the body's

各种客观事物的 - various realities

刺激相对变 - stimululate opposite changes

强引起的。- strongly give rise to (gives rise to what?)

This doesn't make a lot of sense. If paraphrasing I would say something like "When dreaming one is not usually aware of outside events but rather one's thoughts come from within".

So I guess I have several questions:

1. How should this sentence be parsed?
   
2. How should it be translated?
   
3. How easy is it for a native to read this sentence?
   

[roddy]

Oh, this is a fun one . I've got a feeling that by the time I've finished this I'm going to be claiming it's badly written Chinese. That's my usual excuse.

梦中经常能感觉到一些人清醒时不易感觉到的轻微的生理症状

In dreams often can feel some awake-time not easy feel subtle biological states

In dreams we can often be aware of some biological states that are not easily noticed while awake (not sure about use of aware here, but can't think of anything better.

是因人睡眠时来自外界的各种客观事物的刺激相对变小

is because sleep-time from outside objective events stimulation relatively small

beacause as we sleep external simulation is relatively small

来自体内的各种客观事物的刺激相对变强引起的

from body-inside all kinds objective events stimulation relatively strong-becomes

and relative stimulation from inside the body is therefore increased.

Altogether, a quick attempt at a reasonably fluid translation:

When dreaming we are often aware of subtle bodily states that are not easily noticed when awake, as external stimuli are reduced, and so stimulation from inside the body becomes more significant.

Hope this clears things up slightly. I'm not sure about native speakers, but I had to have a few readings. It's tricky because with 感觉到, you don't know what you are actually 感觉到ing until you get about a dozen characters further on, among other things.

I'm not sure that 感觉到, and indeed the whole first clause, is the best possible - your dreams might be influenced by these bodily states while asleep, but can we say you 感觉到 them? And unless the article is actually talking about illness, I'm not sure that 症状 is ok - I've assumed it's 'state'.

Hope that helps.

Roddy

[chenpv]

梦中经常能感觉到一些人清醒时不易感觉到的轻微的生理症状

This part is a simple sentence (Several simple sentences make up complex sentence/compound sentences by way of conjuntive adverbs).

是因人睡眠时来自外界的各种客观事物的刺激相对变小，来自体内的各种客观事物的刺激相对变强引起的

This is the explanation or cause to the above simple sentence, within which has two parallel simple sentences.

If you want to parse a sentence, make sure you can find the trunk of the sentence first. I don't know if the method below agrees with you, but it is a good way of solving problems of this kind for me when I was preparing my entrance exam to college.

梦中经常能感觉到一些人清醒时不易感觉到的轻微的生理症状

First, find all the attributes: as in this sentence, they are 轻微的, 不易感觉到的, 生理;

Then all the adverbials: as in this sentence, they are 梦中, 经常, 一些人清醒时,

Cut them out, and you will get: (someone/we) 能感觉到 症状. (Note that the subject is missing in this sentence.)

Translate it into english: (Someone/We) could be aware of symptoms.

Analyize those attributes and adverbials, while asking yourself questions like:

What the characteristics of those symptoms?-------> 不易感觉到的(inconspicuous) 轻微的(minor) 生理(physical)

Why does the author use those words as the characteristics of those symptoms?------ because 一些人清醒时 (when they are awake) , they wont be able to notice them.

How are those symptoms perceived?------- (someone/we) find it 梦中(in our dreams), 经常(often):

Now put those English words into the trunk according to English grammar.I think it might be easy for you to get:

Very often in our dreams, we could be aware of some minor inconspicuous physical symptoms which are unlikely perceived awake.

Try this on the the other two simple sentences and then join them up with proper conjunctions.

In this sentence its '是因' -----'it is because..'

maybe you would like to have a try?

[nanyangguy]

This sentence"梦中经常能感觉到一些人清醒时不易感觉到"needs a little correction. The lack of subject makes it hard to understand. It can be corrected to一些人 在梦中 经常 能感觉到 他们清醒时不易感觉到的.I leave spaces between some words so you can understand easily.

一些人: Some people

在梦中: In dreams

经常: often

能感觉到: can feel

他们清醒时不易感觉到的: that they can't feel easily when they awake

清醒时: when they awake

轻微的: minor

生理症状: physical symptoms

一些人 在梦中 经常 能感觉到 他们清醒时不易感觉到的 轻微的生理症状 can be translated into "In dreams, some people can often feel the minor physical symptoms that they can't feel easily when they awake".

Now, let's analyse this sentence "是因人睡眠时来自外界的各种客观事物的刺激相对变小，来自体内的各种客观事物的刺激相对变强引起的。".

A little changes: 是因人睡眠时，来自外界的各种客观事物的刺激相对变小，来自体内的各种客观事物的刺激相对变强而引起的。

Try to figure the meaning yourself. 加油! I'm sure you can.

[nanyangguy]

I'm sorry for not completing the translation yesterday.

The sentence after the comma is 是因人睡眠时来自外界的各种客观事物的刺激相对变小，来自体内的各种客观事物的刺激相对变强引起的。A little correction can be made to the sentence. A comma can be added between "是因人睡眠时" and "来自外界的各种客观事物的刺激相对变小". "而" can be added between "来自体内的各种客观事物的刺激相对变强" and "引起的". The sentence will become "是因人睡眠时，来自外界的各种客观事物的刺激相对变小，来自体内的各种客观事物的刺激相对变强而引起的。"

In the sentence, the meanings of the phrases are as follow:

是:is

因: because

人睡眠时: when people are sleeping

来自外界的各种客观事物: various realities that come from outside world

刺激相对变小: the stimulation becomes smaller relatively(相对).

来自体内的各种客观事物: various realities that come from the inside of the bodies

刺激相对变强: the stimulation becomes bigger relatively

引起: cause (verb)

The sentence can be translated as "This is because when people are sleeping, the stimulation of various realities that come from outside world becomes smaller relatively,the stimulation of various realities that come from the inside of the bodies becomes bigger relatively".

Note the word "的" in Chinese sentence, it means "of".

Examples of some phrases:

"The cover of the book" means "那本书的封面".

"我喜欢读的那本书" means "the book that(which) I like to read".

"我喜欢的" means "what i like".

I'm sorry for my bad English. The translation may be "weird", but I have done what I can to translate the sentence. Try to understand it.

[beirne]

Thank you all for your help. I especially liked the suggestion that I strip out the attributives and adverbials and then rebuild the sentence from there. It isn't always easy to figure out where the attributives and adverbials are but I was able to come close enough on the second and third parts that chenpv left for me as an exercise. I'll have to try that the next time I get stuck on a sentence, which will probably be soon.

The sad part is that I still can't read the sentence and understand it while I'm reading it, but being able to analyze it is a big step.

Roddy, I'm glad to know that it took someone more advanced in Chinese than me a few times through to understand. It helps the ego a bit. Also, I liked your clear translation.

Nanyanguy, your sentences definitely are easier to read. If only everyone wrote like you