Are Pinyin abbreviations iu and ui pronounced differently depending on tone 1/2 or 3/4?

[colcode]

I read somewhere that ui/iu are pronounced differently for 1/2 tone than they are for 3/4 tone, I didn't make anything out of it back then, but now after going through the FSI Chinese course, they also mention that. So for example:

 

ui is an abbreviation for uei, however the e is more conspicuous when the tone is 3rd or 4th tone. The same goes for iu is an abbreviation for iou, however the o is more conspicuous when the tone is 3rd or 4th tone.

 

I'm not sure about other abbreviations like o->uo or un->uen.

 

From a not so-much trained ears, I can hear the difference that indeed for ui/iu the presence of the vowel (e/o) depends on which tone the syllable has.

 

1) So my questions is the above information correct or I'm just listening to non-standard Chinese?

 

2) How about other abbreviations like un->uen or o->uo, is the presence of (e/u) sound here depends on the tone of the syllable?

 

 3) Are there any other examples when the pronunciation of a syllable changes depending on its tone? 

 

 

[somethingfunny]

This isn't something I've ever come across.  I'm saying 推 and 腿 to myself but they sound the same (apart from the tone!).

 

Can you give an example?  And maybe some audio.

[colcode]

Listen from the minute 1:45 https://youtu.be/fBvZaJoNfls?t=106 

[Herald]

In native speakers' courses, none of them mention this  difference of pronunciation, and I've never heard about it either.

[Publius]

I think any perceived difference is due to the fact that third tone syllables that include the rise are significantly longer than other syllables.

 

Also I think the rhyming issue mentioned in the video is a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of how rhyme works in Chinese.

Traditionally, when writing poems, one must abide by the rules laid out by the rime books. The rime books reflect the sound system of Middle Chinese, which has four tones: 平 level, 上 rising, 去 departing, and 入 entering. The latter three are also called 仄聲 “oblique tones” in contrast with 平聲 "level tones". Middle Chinese level tone later became the 1st tone and 2nd tone in Mandarin (平分陰陽); Middle Chinese rising tone became Mandarin 3rd tone or 4th tone (濁上歸去); Middle Chinese departing tone became Mandarin 4th tone; Middle Chinese entering tone disappeared from Mandarin (入派三聲).

Modern Mandarin differs significantly from Middle Chinese, yet the rhyme groups defined by rime books are still observed in verse well into the 20th century. There are often discrepancies when reading classical poetry using Mandarin pronunciation. For example, shǒu, jiǔ, liǔ rhyme in 紅酥手，黃藤酒，滿城春色宮牆柳. (In Cantonese, which is more conservative than Mandarin, 手, 酒, 柳 are pronounced sau2, zau2, lau5 respectively.) But one thing is clear even in Mandarin: T1/T2 cannot rhyme with T3/T4 (平仄不通押). This level-oblique distinction is crucial not only in determining the rhyme but also in determining the rhythmic pattern.

That being said, in modern lyrics, the distinction is often disregarded, for example, in this C--pop song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqTXMw9zdto

And 元曲 Yuanqu is the only classical poetry form in which mixed level and oblique rhymes are allowed, e.g. 枯藤老樹昏鴉，小橋流水人家，古道西風瘦馬。 夕陽西下，斷腸人在天涯。

 

I know this has gotten a bit too technical. So to answer your question in simple terms: No, the nucleus (e in 'ui' or o in 'iu') does not appear or disappear depending on the tone. In fact, in a standard Chinese syllable, which can be described as having a structure of (C)(G)V(X)T, the nucleus and the tone are the only non-optional elements. There is no explaining away the bad decision made by Pinyin designers to omit e from 'uei/uen' and o from 'iou'.

[colcode]

@Publius The explanation given by the FSI course ( which I really found to have very detailed information on pronunciation that I couldn't find in dozen of other sources) is that pinyin transcribe ui/iu sounds based on how they sound when in 1st or 2nd tone, so for them, even though ui does have a slight "e" sound between the "u" and "i", this "e" is too subtle that can be ignored.

 

 

[Jose]

Besides the FSI course brought up by colcode, which I don't know, the only written reference book I know which mentions this possible influence of tone on the actual articulation of these vowels is Jerry Norman's Chinese (Cambridge University Press, 1988) on page 143 (right now accessible through the Google Books preview). It is a very subtle effect and it certainly varies across native speakers, but my perception is that there is some truth to it. I remember I also commented on this once in an old thread (just found it here).

[Publius]

@colcodePerhaps I wasn't clear enough. The FSI's explanation, though elaborate, is groundless. It's just an attempt to rationalize, to make sense of, an irrational situation. There's nothing subtle about the "e" in "uei". "E" is the nucleus, the central vowel, the loudest part of a compound final; "i" is the coda, the subtle and smooth off-glide.

 

Occam's razor, a well-known principle in science and philosophy, tells us that the simplest solution tends to be the right one. When evaluating competing theories, one should prefer the simplest theories with the fewest assumptions. Have you ever considered why dozen of other sources didn't mention this phenomenon? Perhaps because it doesn't exist? (I can't access the Google Books preview Jose linked to, but a cursory glance at Jerry Norman's biography makes me wonder whether he was the author responsible for the FSI coursebook.)

 

The original 汉语拼音方案 document simply stated that “iou，uei，uen 前面加声母的时候，写成 iu，ui，un，例如 niu (牛)，gui (归)，lun (论)。” (When preceded by an initial, iou, uei, uen are written as iu, ui, un.) without giving any explanation. But there is a simple explanation why 'iou' is abbreviated to 'iu' (and why a standalone 'ü' syllable can be written as 'yu'): because the combination /iu/ doesn't exist in Mandarin Chinese -- therefore it won't cause much trouble to native speakers who already knew the pronunciations backward and forward and who are merely learning to read and write.

 

Like I said, the difference you hear between Yǒu and Yōu, Liǔ and Liú is due to the fact that a third-tone syllable in isolation is significantly longer than usual -- so much so that the nucleus and the coda end up clearly on different pitch levels. It's quite interesting that they didn't use a forth-tone example in the video. A forth tone wouldn't work.

 

You can test it yourself. Listen to the pronunciation of 牛 (niú). Does it sound like the English word "new (/nju:/)"? Or 推 (tuī). Does it sound like "tweet (/twi:t/)" minus -t? Do you still believe the NUCLEUS of a syllable can be so subtle that it's safe to ignore it? (Sorry I used all caps to hammer home the significance of the word "nucleus".)

 

As for the rhyming issue, I'll just say this:

It is true that the 1st/2nd tone doesn't rhyme with the 3rd tone. But it's not because the vowel qualities are different. It's because, well, they have different tones. Tone is as much a part of the syllable as consonant. Different tone, different rime. Simple as that. (The 4th tone also doesn't rhyme with the 3rd tone in the strictest sense. The 1st tone and 2nd tone are lumped together in rime books because they were written before the Middle Chinese level tone split into two.) For more technical details, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_(linguistics)#Origin

 

[colcode]

@Publius Thanks for your thorough response.

 

Would you recommend studying using the FSI course even though it was produced in 1979? I know that some words have different means now compared to what they used to mean, but is it just a handful of words or a lot that will cause a problem in understanding? I'm asking this question because I find the FSI course very detailed and doesn't dumb things down like other new courses, so if the Standard Chinese hasn't changed much from the 1979 I would rather use it than other sources.