US / China people-to-people relations

[bobbyd]

With all the talk about relations between the US and China going south, I'm curious how expats currently living in China see people-to-people relations right now. Are you seeing a change in attitudes towards Americans when the inevitable where are you from question pops up? Are you noticing existing friends acting differently towards you or anyone you know due to the increased tension between the two countries? Just wondering. Thanks!

[mungouk]

Well, I don't live in China but it's probably worth pointing out that "people" doesn't equal "government" — one of the few things at the moment that keeps me going TBH.

 

Also that the media's control over the perception of other countries is, well, media/government controlled to various (but large) extents.

 

Is your question maybe more succinctly put as "how will I be treated as an American immigrant [expat] in China"...?

 

 

 

 

 

[bobbyd]

15 minutes ago, mungouk said:

it's probably worth pointing out that "people" doesn't equal "government"

I agree. That's why I clarified it as "people-to-people" relations. Ultimately the media/government does shape the minds of people on both sides of the Pacific for better or worse, so it's hard to fully untangle that piece, but I figured if the question is asked from the level of people-to-people relations, then readers wouldn't be commenting on whether this government did this or that unless in impacted their personal relationships/experiences.

 

18 minutes ago, mungouk said:

Is your question maybe more succinctly put as "how will I be treated as an American immigrant [expat] in China"...?

Was actually more curious about other people's experiences.

[mungouk]

@bobbyd well I think we more or less agree, although I would dispute that the power of propaganda on either side of the US-PRC divide is equivalent. 

 

[abcdefg]

I live in China, am American, and have not yet noticed a groundswell of animosity from ordinary people I meet day to day. I expect there to be some backlash to the propaganda struggle, it just has not yet reached Kunming (where I live) or my neighborhood or my social group, not sure of the reasons. I do get frequent questions about Trump along the lines of, "What the f#*% is that guy doing?" I try my best to distance myself from him; but that only goes so far. 

 

As the situation worsens, I do expect some fallout. It now is not only a trade war, but a broader and more basic conflict. As it becomes more of a general-purpose, broad-scope "pissing contest," I think Americans living here will feel some impact. (Hope that I am wrong; and I admit that I am definitely *not* an astute or particularly well informed political analyst.)  

[Baby Charlie]

I am in Harbin, and other then all 3 of the Walmarts closing the week that tariffs were enacted, I have not noticed any clear animosity towards  me. I do get a lot of what is wrong with your country and is your president as stupid as he appears to be, questions. I answer to the best of my ability: Morons are governing America and Yes!

[DavyJonesLocker]

1 hour ago, Baby Charlie said:

I do get a lot of what is wrong with your country and is your president as stupid as he appears to be, questions.

 

Although I am not American and as much as I like China I do feel there is a lot of blatant hypocrisy towards Trump and his policies from some of the Chinese population, especially towards trade when the Chinese have never played fair for decades by any stretch of the imagination.  ?

 

If there is some form of animosity between two countries I think though it is totally inexcusable for any member of the public to somehow vent their ill feelings on another countries citizens as we have seen a few times with Japanese over the years . 

 

I have over the years the (very) odd time got a subtle hint of "why don't you go back to your own country" from some older traditional (if you call it that) Chinese. However a quick reminder of how many Chinese have settled in other countries around the world usually ends the conversation.  

[NinjaTurtle]

13 hours ago, abcdefg said:

I do get frequent questions about Trump along the lines of, "What the f#*% is that guy doing?" I try my best to distance myself from him; but that only goes so far. 

 

I like to use the line, "I do not have political discussions with Chinese people."

[Dawei3]

I go to China a few times/year and I'm here now.  I wondered whether the trade tensions would make it less inviting.  In my experience, I've felt nothing different from my many previous trips.  While I expected my friends to treat me the same way, I've found strangers to be just as warm as in my previous experiences - even strangers on the low end of the pay scale.  

 

I just got back from a tiny convenience store that I've been to a few times (in Beijing). When I was paying, they looked at my wallet, curious as to where I'm from.  When I said I'm American, they immediately said "it's a very good place" (这是一个很好的地方).  We had a nice conversation.  I didn't detect a moment of negativity.

 

Similarly, last week in Yunnan I took a cab to my hotel.  I sat next to the cab driver (usually the only place you can sit if you want to use a seat belt).  There was no traffic, so I was comfortable talking with him.  We talked the whole way.  That I was from the US had no negative reaction on him (and I was looking for it).  It was the opposite:  when I mentioned that China has many historic sites, he noted that Americans are very smart, the US has a very short history, yet it is so powerful and rich.  All of the friends & family of my friend there were extremely warm to me.  There wasn't a moment of tension.  

 

Also, from interacting with undergrads & grads at a university in Beijing I also detected no difference from my many previous trips.  One young guy asked me "what is the biggest concern of young people in the US today?"  That is, he was generally curious about the US, not tensions.  Last weekend at a social event where I met lots of people, I felt the same warmth I always do.

 

Finally, I expected closer friends to ask me about the US/China situation, but none did.  It seems to be a non-issue - much to my surprise.   Then again, to most Americans the trade war is something we've just heard about -  but not yet felt.  

 

As background, although I'm not fully fluent, most of what I can say I can say well (很自然).  This has an extremely positive effect on people.  Rather than being frustrated about an inability to communicate, there's wonderment about our ability chat (I feel the same way).  In contrast, an American who speaks little to no Chinese might have a different experience.  Also, I'm a visitor, not an expat living here.     

 

[Shelley]

2 hours ago, NinjaTurtle said:

I like to use the line, "I do not have political discussions with Chinese people."

 

Its too long.. just "I do not have political discussions" is good enough. No need to specify with who, I think it comes across wrongly.

[vellocet]

16 hours ago, abcdefg said:

I do get frequent questions about Trump along the lines of, "What the f#*% is that guy doing?" I try my best to distance myself from him; but that only goes so far. 

Really?  I find he hardly ever comes up except in conversations with other foreigners.  The general attitude towards Americans is very positive.  Once in a while you'll get a jerk, but that's anywhere.  Sometimes I get quizzed about how America is, and what the hell am I doing in China when I could live my life there instead.  Chinese people would trade places with me in a heartbeat.

 

I did have a conversation last week where a Chinese friend rolled his eyes when talking about the tariffs.  But if he'd have pressed it I'd have pointed out that China has been benefiting their industries with tariffs for a long time.  Tesla just bought land to build a huge factory in Shanghai, and the reason stated was 50-60% higher price due to tariffs and transportation expenses.  American workers lose, Chinese workers win.  

[PerpetualChange]

Somehow got targeted with the LaoWhy videos about how he "escaped" China and how bad his life got there. 

I have to say before this all I was not really a fan of his style and he seemed to be skirting the line of what kind of things he could get away with. He also describes a China that was exciting and emerging in the mid aughts through the 10s, before being disappointed by (insert generic but valid list of China issues here, i.e., kidnapping, food safety, etc.,)

 

Having only lived in Hong Kong, I never really new the ebbs and flows of attitudes in China toward foreigners. I personally would have never picked China as a place to live and raise a family, so I don't know if LaoWhy's stuff is valid and that life in China is not as good as it once was, or if it's just a case of another foreigner in China who realizes that there's an expiration date on Laowai special privileges. 

 

My mainlander friends who moved to HK have told me, however, that HK feels almost just like another mainland city anymore.

[Demonic_Duck]

On 10/24/2018 at 4:49 PM, Shelley said:

Its too long.. just "I do not have political discussions" is good enough. No need to specify with who, I think it comes across wrongly.

 

Personally I'm quite happy to have political discussions with anyone I consider to be open-minded, regardless of where they're from... but I definitely think the excuse has a much less confrontational ring to it without the qualification. I can imagine many Chinese folks would be (understandably) offended, otherwise.

[Dawei3]

2 hours ago, PerpetualChange said:

LaoWhy

I originally liked laowhy & Serpenza because they offered some useful cultural insights.  They sometimes showed the negative side of China, but in a somewhat neutral way.  However, now I've found them to be mostly polemic against China without a sense of cultural sensitivity.   It seems like they want to stir up problems.  The titles of their videos still grab my attention, but when I look at them, I've been disappointed (and  I tell myself not to bother clicking on their videos...).  

 

Also, I find some of their discussions of problems in China show a complete lack of technical knowledge, whether it is drinking water, food safety, or pollution.  If someone is going to do a youtube on a topic, they should either research it using credible sources or accept they lack the necessary background and instead cover a topic they actually understand.  Criticizing a country about a topic for which they lack even minimal knowledge is not the way to go....     

[杰.克]

I wholly agree. It's like theres been a tainting of the youtube community in the last few years. Lines have been drawn, and now uploaders are distinctly in the anti/pro china camps. It's difficult to find anyone with a modicum of balance.  And creators on both sides constantly throw mud at the other side. It's really disheartening.

 

In truth though, Youtube is an exceptionally important conduit of information. More people now take their news from facebook and youtube than traditional media. It would make sense to me, that if you consider US and China to be in a new cold war, that is being contested in multiple spheres (technological, trade, information) that the most popular content creators would not have in some way been co-opted. I don't know how the details of how this would happen. But it seems stark to me, that their is a much more concerted and conducted narrative being pushed by influential creators (on both sides).

 

Whether this is true or not, i try to avoid engaging now in this content war. I like to look for the positive on both sides, both US and China are great, and in distinct aspects bring light to the world. Its not that I don't think both counteries dont have negative aspects, its jut for my own mental health, i cant consitently watch "so and so country is evil" videos and remain upbeat. My hope is for a future where these 2 superpowers work together (imagine the progress we would make).

 

p.s I would add Reddit China and Reddit Sino into this category. Theres been a significant change on those boards in the last 3 years or so. An almost organised structuring of antagonism towards the US or China dependant on which side.  

[Flickserve]

17 hours ago, PerpetualChange said:

My mainlander friends who moved to HK have told me, however, that HK feels almost just like another mainland city anymore.

Bear in mind they could be living in a mainland bubble. 

[roddy]

It's perhaps as much to do with the mainland 'catching up', so to speak. 15 years ago you could get whiplash flying 2nd tier city to Hong Kong. Now, less so.

[Insectosaurus]

I know everyone says it but it really is a lot about separating people and governments (and I'm talking about individual people here, not in a collective, ethnic sense). We have a responsibility to not ignore what is being done by the Chinese regime. We also have a responsibility to not treat Chinese individuals as representatives for their regime, and also understand that many of them have grown up under both a monopolistic media climate, a propagandic regime and obvously a quite difference education system. Thinking one would all be as critical of the Chinese regime if one was born in China is naive.

 

That goes for all countries. I'm gay and am appalled by the policies towards LGBT people in many countries, but I still understand that a lot of the friendly people I meet in China, Rwanda and so on, are homophobes. Most times not because they have been thinking about the issue a lot, but because they have not had the opportunity to do so (basically because it's a taboo subject).

 

For me it's more of a: is there any point of me discussing this subject with this person? If it's an educated guy about homosexuality, sure, he might leave the room a bit more open-minded on that issue. If it's about more burning topics where the state has been quite vocal, like Hong Kong, then I think we'd better turn the conversation to totally harmless stuff instead.

[PerpetualChange]

14 hours ago, Dawei3 said:

I originally liked laowhy & Serpenza because they offered some useful cultural insights.  They sometimes showed the negative side of China, but in a somewhat neutral way.  However, now I've found them to be mostly polemic against China without a sense of cultural sensitivity.   It seems like they want to stir up problems.  The titles of their videos still grab my attention, but when I look at them, I've been disappointed (and  I tell myself not to bother clicking on their videos...).  

 

Also, I find some of their discussions of problems in China show a complete lack of technical knowledge, whether it is drinking water, food safety, or pollution.  If someone is going to do a youtube on a topic, they should either research it using credible sources or accept they lack the necessary background and instead cover a topic they actually understand.  Criticizing a country about a topic for which they lack even minimal knowledge is not the way to go....    

 

This sounds reasonable to me. These guys forged lives for themselves using their special status in China where they probably would have fallen under the cracks anywhere else. But they hit a ceiling in terms of their success that I'm sure many of us have - the realization that, no matter how many individual Chinese they impress and enamor,  they can and will never be full participants in China's society. Honestly, that was a big real why I decided to return home, despite having received a fairly good job offer doing student life stuff at a western branch of a University in Wenzhou. As much as I loved China and wanted to see more, I'd already had two years under my belt, and spending any more time there seemed to mean putting other life milestones on hold. 

 

That said, yeah, I expect more. These guys lived in China 10 years, and all they've got in their videos are generic critiques. Every single one of the things mentioned (Gutter oil, Uighurs,  formula, alcohol, cenorship, and other rights issues) were things you knew out of the gate 10 years ago, so you've got to ask yourself really what else happened to turn these guys so quickly. 

[Flickserve]

5 hours ago, PerpetualChange said:

so you've got to ask yourself really what else happened to turn these guys so quickly. 

they make more money by click and bait. There are huge numbers of chinese people who watch the videos and make comments defending China. Probably these video makers don’t have other jobs and hit on this change of style to generate more income.