Vesion of Tao Te Ching (Lao Zi): Opinions ?

[awnasser]

Ni hao.

I have been fascinated by Lao Zi's work (Tao Te Ching or Dao De Jing) since I was a teen.

Now that I am able to read the original, I am trying to write "my own version" of it.

I have seen over 100 versions in English and other languages. I have spotted two big problems with those translations:

1) Westerners tend to put too much emphasis on the literary aspect, and much of the emphatic, focused and concise aspects of Classical Chinese are lost. So the first phrase goes like this sometimes:

"The Tao which can be spoken about is not the absolute Tao."

2) At the other extreme, the versions that try to be "too Chinese” are sometimes too obscure for us westerners:

"Tao that can be Tao is not eternal Tao."

So, I decided to write something somewhere "in the middle": Parts 1 and 9 would go like this:

===========

1. Tao

Tao that is Tao is not Tao

Tao is all

When all is named it becomes but a word

Without words or concepts

With an empty mind

Only then

We perceive the world

With desire

We see the world as we wish

Not as it is

Call Tao in many languages and forms.

It is but one.

Enter this portal

You will experience reality

Not illusion

9. Retreat

Fill a glass to its rim

It will spill

Forge a sword to its stiffest

It will break

Exhibit many jewels

They will be stolen

Harbor fame and pride

You will fall into ridicule

Knowing when to retreat:

That is supreme.

====

I would like your opinions. If all goes well, I will put all the parts (chapters) on the internet.

Xie xie nimen dou. Zai jian.

AWN

[JoH]

Hi awnasser, thanks for giving me the excuse to spend Sunday morning reading the dao de jing, which I haven’t done for a while.

I should say that I haven’t read the whole original and am not claiming to be an expert, just offering my personal interpretation. I’ll start with chapter nine, as that is the more straightforward. I liked your translation of this chapter, and only have a few comments.

Fill a glass to its rim

It will spill

Forge a sword to its stiffest

It will break

I like these two lines, apart from the use of ‘stiffest’ – I think sharpest sounds better and seems to fit rui4 in the original better?

Exhibit many jewels

They will be stolen

Harbor fame and pride

You will fall into ridicule

Here I’m not sure about ‘exhibit’, I get more of an idea of ‘hoarding’ from the original (‘halls filled with gold and jade’) rather than ‘exhibiting’. Your translation suggests that it is being flashy with your wealth that attracts the thieves, whereas my understanding is more like, by grasping after material objects and thereby giving them a great value, we make it inevitable that others will try to take them from us.

I’m not sure about ‘ridicule’ either although I’m not really sure how to interpret jiu4 (blame? censure?)

Knowing when to retreat:

That is supreme.

To me the phrase ‘knowing when to retreat’ gives the impression of someone who uses retreat as a tactic to achieve their goals, like knowing when to back down in order to fight another day, that kind of thing. Whereas I think the original is more about retiring once you have achieved your goals – in other words, knowing when to stop rather than always grasping after more, knowing when enough is enough. The idea of knowing when to stop, of not being excessive, also fits better with the rest of the chapter than the idea of retreating I think.

Anyway, thanks for your post. I’ll post some comments on chapter one later.

Jo

[fenlan]

Surely the second 道is a verb - spoken of, talked about. It is a nonsense in English to say "the Tao that is Tao is not Tao". First of all, Tao does not mean anything in English. It is like a false type of pretended authenticity to say "Tao". "The Way that can be spoken of is not the Eternal Way."

[JoH]

More comments…

I am not so keen on your translation of chapter one. You have lost the original structure of the verse, and I think it is important to keep it here. Especially as this is such a difficult passage to understand. As Fenlan said, the dao following ke is normally read as a verb, so the ‘dao ke dao’ of the opening line matches the ‘ming ke ming’ of the second line - ‘the dao that can be dao-ed…’ and ‘The name that can be named…’.

I think its fine to decide not to translate the noun Dao (I would use the pinyin Dao rather than Tao though) – although then you would need to have some discussion or explanation of it upfront – but not the second, when it is used as a verb. I would personally prefer ‘the way that can be followed’ or possibly ‘the way that can be talked about’. As it stands, your first line does not convey any meaning at all, unless you have already explained what you understand by Dao.

Also, you have put in a ‘tao is all’ which is not in the original. I’m not sure what you mean by that?

Without words or concepts

With an empty mind

Only then

We perceive the world

I am not sure I agree with your interpretation here. What happened to ‘the beginning of heaven and earth’ and ‘the mother of the 10,000 things’? I know you are trying to get away from a literal translation, but I think this is an oversimplification. There is a contrast in the original – which is either between wu ming / you ming, or just wu / you, I’m never sure how to interpret it – which is lost in your translation.

With desire

We see the world as we wish

Not as it is

Call Tao in many languages and forms.

It is but one.

I quite like these bits though, although again I would personally have kept more of the structure of the original.

Enter this portal

You will experience reality

Not illusion

Hmm – why portal rather than the simpler gate? I have no idea how to translate this section though, so your guess is as good as mine!

[fenlan]

Why not copy Fitzgerald's Rubaiyat, which is a very free version of Omar Khayyam's original? You can write your own Daodejing, and you don't have to say it is a translation, just a free interpretation of the original, which is in fact a completely separate work? That seems to be what you are producing anyway.

[awnasser]

Thank you guys.

Well, I like pretty much JoH's ideas. First, I would like to emphisize that I am not trying to be very literal. In short, I'm trying to get each "cell" of thought in it and translate into what would be the most concise and sharp in English, without losing the ESSENCE of the original. That is my whole idea.

By the "way" , I am taking into account the person who reads this text is already familiar with the concept of Tao. Besides, nowadays people are mostly acquainted with Tao, instead of Dao, or the Way. So, I'll leave it that way, as far as "naming" Tao goes

> I like these two lines, apart from the use of ‘stiffest’ – I think sharpest sounds better and

> seems to fit rui4 in the original better?

I think for us westerners stiffest or hardest best represents our "resistance".

> Here I’m not sure about ‘exhibit’, I get more of an idea of ‘hoarding’ from the original

The idea of "showing off" or "being flashy" especially appeals to me.

> To me the phrase ‘knowing when to retreat’ gives the impression of someone who uses retreat as a tactic to achieve their goals.

I like your opinion here. I'll rephrase it to:

Retiring when it is enough:

The supreme Tao. ---------> ( do you like this ? In the originial it's "heaven's Tao".)

Besides, I has a lot to do with the image of Lao Zi retiring in the mountains.

As to chapter 1, that's surely the hardest one. So, I'll think it over.

After all, do you see what happens when one "talks of Tao" ?

Thank you. More comments are welcome.

[JoH]

Retiring when it is enough:

The supreme Tao.

I think I preferred 'that is supreme' as the final line.

Glad you found the comments helpful anyway. I'd be interested to hear more about how you interpret the first line of chapter one (dao ke dao, fei chang dao).

Jo

[fenlan]

awnasser, why don't you call it a new work based very loosely on the Tao Te Ching?

[awnasser]

JoH,

> Glad you found the comments helpful anyway. I'd be interested to

> hear more about how you interpret the first line of chapter one (dao ke dao, fei chang dao).

The first line is the worst, WORST part of it, for all translators, I suppose. I have a list with over 150 different versions of it. They are so different...

The PERSONAL vision -- you might disagree -- is that it's a kind of "punchline" at the beginning. So I have settled on an incisive, concise and "slogan-like" form. Then in the next lines I try to "explain" (or outline) the meaning. So:

Literally:

Dao / ke / dao / fei / chang / dao = Way / can-be / way / (is) not / (for)ever / way

If I were doing LITERATURE I would go for:

"The Tao that can be expressed is not the absolute Tao."

That's approximately what most writers do.

Well, I have thought it over. For REFLECTION / MEDITATION (sh) purposes, I prefer:

"Tao named Tao is no more Tao."

So... taking up the text again:

As to chapter 9, you are right, the idea of "stored" jewels fits better, I think... The reference to storing up things in a room is very strong. And... maybe "shame" goes better instead of ridicule/blame/censure ? So it would go like:

9.

Fill a glass to its rim

It will spill

Forge a sword to its stiffest

It will break

Store many jewels

They will be stolen

Harbor fame and pride

You will fall into shame

Retiring when it is enough:

That is supreme.

As to chapter 1, I feel that "the mother of 10,000 things" and the "origin of heaven and earth" and extremely "Classical Chinese". I'd replace them simply by: "all" (meaning "whole", "universe") and "things" (meaning material, "wordly"). Yeah, "gate" is ok. I have changed all chapter one, based on your comments. I've tried to be very close to the original here.

1.

Tao named Tao is no more Tao

Once named

Tao becomes but a word

Without words

We sense all

With words

We understand things

Without desire

We sense mystery

With desire

We see things

Name Tao in any manner

You will lose the meaning

No matter how deeply

Enter the gate

To mystery.

What do you think ? You could help me carry on with the "translation", since it seems we have a very close understanding. I like that !

Bye,

AWN

PS: BTW, my name is Andre Whittick Nasser, and I live in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.

[studentyoung]

I would like to offer my translation and hope it can be helpful.

道可道，非常道。

名可名，非常名。

无名天地之始。有名万物之母。

故常无欲以观其妙；常有欲以观其徼。

此两者，同出而异名。同谓之玄，玄之又玄，众妙之门。

Tao can be interpreted, but Tao here is not as the common concept as “way”.

(Tao here means all kind of the rules and laws.)

Ming can be named, but Name here is not as the common concept as “name”.

(Ming here means any concrete shapes or phenomena showed by Tao.)

Wuming (The chaos) is the beginning of the cosmos. Youming (The materiality) is the mother of the world.

(Wuming here means the chaos and Youming means the materiality.)

So we usually observe the subtilty of Tao in immateriality, and observe the clues of Tao in materiality.

Both materiality and immateriality share the same origin, but they have their respective names. They both can be called “abstrusity”. And you can fine another abstrusity in every abstrusity, so it is the gate to guide you to all kinds of the subtility in the cosmos.

Thanks!

[JoH]

Fenlan, isn't any translation of the dao de jing going to be only loosely based on the original? I mean, any translation will only be a personal interpretation ... much more so with this book than with many others.

As for your translation Andre, I like chapter nine now. But I am still trying to get my head around the first bit of chapter one.

Tao named Tao is no more Tao

Once named

Tao becomes but a word

I like what you have but I think you are missing part of the meaning which studentyoung has in his. I appreciate that you are attempting a totally different kind of translation, but it is this part about

>Tao can be interpreted, but Tao here is not as the common concept as “way”.

(Tao here means all kind of the rules and laws.)

I am not sure that studentyoung would agree with my interpretation, but this is how I understand it: Dao, I think, can be used in the sense of a tradition of teaching - you could talk of the Dao/Way of Confucius for example, or the Dao of Islam or the Dao of Christianity for that matter. These 'Daos' have texts, their teachings can be captured in words and passed on by teacher to pupil, they encompass rules and regulations or rituals intended to regulate societies. So, the way I understand the first line is as drawing a distinction between the Dao of the Daodejing, the universal Dao, and these other 'lesser' Daos created by man. Was that anything like what you meant, studentyoung?

I'm still thinking about the rest of the chapter...

[fenlan]

OK, can someone explain to me: does Dao ke dao definitely mean "the way that can be followed" or definitely mean "the way that can be spoken of", or actually both?

[awnasser]

JoH, I really appreciate your comments. You seem to have a very good grasp of the subject.

>I am not sure that studentyoung would agree with my interpretation, but this is how I >understand it: Dao, I think, can be used in the sense of a tradition of teaching - you >could talk of the Dao/Way of Confucius for example, or the Dao of Islam or the Dao of >Christianity for that matter. These 'Daos' have texts, their teachings can be captured in >words and passed on by teacher to pupil, they encompass rules and regulations or

> ituals intended to regulate societies. So, the way I understand the first line is as >drawing a distinction between the Dao of the Daodejing, the universal Dao, and these >other 'lesser' Daos created by man.

Very good point. It seems to me that it's very important do understand de word "Dao" as simply a doctine or teaching. It's a very important part of the Chinese culture and thought.

However, in practice, I don't think that would change the essence of text - not relevant here I suppose.

As I said, I assume people are already acquainted with Lao Tzu's specific doctine (Dao) before reading it.

Thank you all, AWN

[awnasser]

Fenlan,

> OK, can someone explain to me: does Dao ke dao definitely mean "the way that can be

> followed" or definitely mean "the way that can be spoken of", or actually both?

The original is very "vage". Classical Chinese (and I think, especially Lao Tzu's work) is very abstract even compared to modern Chinese. It might have both interpretations. You will find some authors that will prefer one or the other. There are hundreds of them.

It's literally:

Dao / ke / dao / fei / chang / dao = Way / can(be) / way / (is) not / (for)ever / way

Bye, AWN ;)

[studentyoung]

So, the way I understand the first line is as drawing a distinction between the Dao of the Daodejing, the universal Dao, and these other 'lesser' Daos created by man. Was that anything like what you meant, studentyoung?

According to my understanding, I mean the first line is as drawing a distinction of the abstract Tao (which is an abstract collective noun here) covers all the rules and laws exist in the universal, and other concrete Taos no matter created by man or not.

Thanks!

[awnasser]

According to my understanding, I mean the first line is as drawing a distinction of the abstract Tao (which is an abstract collective noun here) covers all the rules and laws exist in the universal, and other concrete Taos no matter created by man or not.

Studentyoung, I believe we have agreed on that since the beginning of the thread. If it was not expliitly mentioned, it was understood that way, I think.

AWN

[JoH]

Fenlan, I don't think anyone could claim to know for sure what it means. How would anyone prove that their interpretation was right? There are some passages that everyone seems to agree on, but not this one. It is quite fitting though, since its all about how you can't put the dao into words...

[JoH]

Studentyoung: thanks, that’s very clear now.

Now for the next bit.

无名天地之始。有名万物之母。

故常无欲以观其妙；常有欲以观其徼。

You have both read the first bit as comparing wuming and youming, which seems to be the normal way to interpret it and the one I would probably go for. But I’m sure I’ve also seen it interpreted as being about wu and you, non-being and being, like:

无，名天地之始。有，名万物之母。????

Studentyoung, you have interpreted wuyu as immateriality and youyu as materiality, if I am understanding you correctly. Could you explain what you mean by that a bit more? By ‘materiality’ do you mean having material desires, ie desires for material things? What is the difference between youming (the materiality) and youyu (materiality)?

wuming = the chaos

youming = the materiality

wuyu = immateriality

youyu = materiality

Basically, I think I agree with your interpretation here Andre, but I’m not sure about the second and fourth lines.

Without words

We sense all 天地之始 beginning of the cosmos

With words

We understand things 万物之母 the mother of the world

Without desire

We sense mystery

With desire

We see things

Before I thought about it too hard I would have interpreted this section as being about naming ie naming external objects. I think of the youming and the youyu lines as having negative connotations – naming or labelling external objects distinguishes us from them, and them from each other, and therefore divides the universe (tiandi), which is essentially a unity, into the ‘ten thousand things’. Having labelled the ten thousand things we then desire to control or posses them and forget that we and they are merely parts of the same whole. I’m not sure that this makes any sense, now that I try to explain it. And I had then read jiao as ‘boundaries’ or ‘periphery’, something like that.

If I ever try to translate anything like this myself, it will be the analects of Confucius. Much simpler.

[studentyoung]

无名天地之始。有名万物之母。

故常无欲以观其妙；常有欲以观其徼。

I think “欲以” here means “can be used to可以用来”, but not “with a desire”. “常” here means “usually”.

And I don’t think “无名” here can be divided into “无” and “名”. Have you ever hear a phase “无名火”?

Moreover, "名" in Dao De Jing means "shape" not "name". Xixi.

If I ever try to translate anything like this myself, it will be the analects of Confucius. Much simpler.

Cool, JoH! You see, you have done quite well so far!

Thanks!

[awnasser]

JoH, thanks for your ideas again.

Lao Zi seems to say what Shakespeare also meant when he said:

"Words, words, words..." (Shakespeare)

Words connot convey ideas precisely. At best they give a "glimpse" of them. So after all, talking of Tao is a bit useless. We are doing here exactly what Lao Zi tell us not to do.

JoH, I'd like to keep in touch in you, since I may not be always here. I have tried to write you a message directly but I think it is not allowed. My address is:

andre_nasser at yahoo com br

Would you please write me ?

Thank you all