Vesion of Tao Te Ching (Lao Zi): Opinions ?

[HashiriKata]

Interesting thread & I’d like to join in!

道可道，非常道。

名可名，非常名。

无名天地之始。有名万物之母。

故常无欲以观其妙；常有欲以观其徼。

此两者，同出而异名。同谓之玄，玄之又玄，众妙之门。

Just for fun, here’s my very, very free interpretation:

Whatever you'd think Dao is, do as you please.

Whatever you’d name it, do feel free.

But Dao is boundless and eternal.

No is the source of the universe and Yes is the root of all things.

They’re one and the same, just as chaos is another name for order.

So abandon the sage and see yourself at the gate of Dao.

[JoH]

Well, you weren't joking when you said it was very free! 'Kill the sage' doesn't sound very 'daoist' to me somehow ... how about 'laugh at the sage' ??

This is interesting: Moreover, <"名" in Dao De Jing means "shape" not "name". >

I have not come across that. How you you get 'shape;? It's not one of the normal (I mean modern) uses of ming is it? Is it an older use of the word, or just an interpretation specific to the daodejing?

Awnasser, I've just emailed you.

Jo

[HashiriKata]

JoH,

The line has been edited. Hope it's to your liking

Cheers,

[JoH]

Like it.

The 'no/yes' thing is unusual. But in the context of your free interpretation, I think it works. Is it for 'wu/you'?

[HashiriKata]

The 'no/yes' thing is unusual. [...] Is it for 'wu/you'?

Yes, it is:

无，名天地之始。有，名万物之母。

Incidentally, the original line

"So kill the sage to see yourself at the gate of Dao"

does not advocate violence , but is in the spirit of the Buddhist teaching: “kill the Buddha when you see him” (= free yourself)

Cheers,

[awnasser]

HashiriKata,

From you name, I think you are of Japanese origin, right ? If so, would you please "kill" my doubt (below), just like you would do to Buddha ?

Since Japan's Kanji (hanzi) seems to be very close to Ancient Chinese, would you say a Japanese could read Tao Te Ching directly ?

I am not sure, but I think in Japan they keep the ideograms for "know" just like in Dao De Jing -- only zhi, not zhi-dao -- just one ideogram. Right ? (Sorry, no Chinese fonts)

Sorry if you are not Japanse

A bit off-topic... In Zen-Buddhism, there's a saying that goes (I think that's what you meant):

"If you see Buddha on the road, just kill it." (Meaning not to give credit to supernatural things and see things in their reality, not as an illusion). That's a big Taoist influence on Buddism that originated Zen-Buddhism (or simply Zen). I suppose Indian and Tibetan (orthodox) Buddhism would consider that an heresy.

I like the "lightness" of Zen, really great ! I like the idea of a religion (philosophy ?) whose supreme "enlightment" is being funny. Seems to be very clever.

Thanks, AWN

[HashiriKata]

Hi AWM,

From you name, I think you are of Japanese origin, right ? If so, would you please "kill" my doubt (below)

I’ll see what I can do to help but, as a Zen master would say it, it’d have to be you yourself to “kill” your doubt.

Since Japan's Kanji (hanzi) seems to be very close to Ancient Chinese, would you say a Japanese could read Tao Te Ching directly ?

No, it would be less direct than a Chinese speaker would, since the grammars of Japanese and (even ancient) Chinese are very different (which is an additional step for the Japanese to overcome). Still, language plays only a part in understanding, don’t you think ?

I think in Japan they keep the ideograms for "know" just like in Dao De Jing -- only zhi, not zhi-dao -- just one ideogram. Right ?

That's right!

"If you see Buddha on the road, just kill it." (Meaning not to give credit to supernatural things and see things in their reality, not as an illusion).

I like your using “it” to refer to Buddha, as it takes the sex question out of the debate . As regards the interpretation of that saying, I’d say it varies a lot between people, as can be seen between yours and mine above.

Cheers,

[awnasser]

Hashirikata,

No, it would be less direct than a Chinese speaker would, since the grammars of Japanese and (even ancient) Chinese are very different (which is an additional step for the Japanese to overcome).

Hmmm.. I don't see much "grammar" in Dao De Jing. The only grammar I see is stuff like "heaven's Dao" (possessive), and other simple constructs. I believe the "darkness" of Lao Zi lies in his lack of grammar. I think Japanese follows the same pattern. Am i wrong ? Can you give us a small example ? I'm interested in Japanese compared to Chinese.

Still, language plays only a part in understanding, don’t you think ?

In pschycology, we say such a lack of meaning creates a "vacuum". The mind just can't stand vaccum. Whenever mind finds "nothing", it feels "nervous" and tends to fill that gap with "something". So, it's compelled to "bring up" from your unconscious (intuition, whatever you name it) your own interpretation for the words -- based solely on your own background, because there's nothing but your background there. Yep, it's a cool psychology behind it

I wonder if Lao Zi really means what we think he did in Dao De Jing. As you said, language plays a small part in it. Intuition has to pass through "mind" to get across to other people. That happens through words. And words are misleading. The greatest Western thinkers (Socrates, Wittgenstein, Freud, etc) have come to a point where they questioned the power of words.

Wittgenstein -- one of they most important philosophers of the 20th century -- worked all his carrer on the logic of words. But, at the end of his carrer he came to the conclusion that "language is not possible". It's approximately the same as Socrates, in Greece, dealing with knowlege: "I know I know nothing".

Maybe they discovered Dao at the end of their lives ? Hmmm, they wouln't have spent so much time if they had read Lao Zi before...

I like your using “it” to refer to Buddha, as it takes the sex question out of the debate

I think Zen would refer to Buddha as "it". Whereas the orthodox Buddhists in India and Tibet seem to worship Buddha as a god, Zen tends to consider it a figure of speech or rhethoric, like in jokes and koans.

Bye, Andre