Finished HSK 3. Should I start reading or continue with learning HSK 4 characters or a combo?

[agewisdom]

I need some sagely advice. Right now, I've completed all my HSK 3 characters. I'd say, I am able to retain about 90% of the characters, approx.  The thing is, trying to consolidate and retaining these characters is possibly going to take an hour. Currently, I have 2 hours to spare. What I did until now was spend about 1 hour to revise the earlier learnt characters and another 1 hour to learn the new characters.

 

I am a overseas Chinese, so I can speak and understand elementary Mandarin. However, when trying to read text, it's still somewhat awkward. Actually quite difficult really, as compared to hearing it, where I can understand much better.

 

My question:

1. Is it more productive to take a breather and focus on reading text like on DuChinese and TCB exclusively, say for 3 months and STOP learning new characters in HSK 4?

2. Or should I continue plowing through HSK 4 more slowly and read text as well simultaneously?

3. Or continue to complete HSK 4 characters before going through reading text?

 

Right now, time constraints demand I prioritise one over another. So would appreciate if anyone can share their experience here to help me decide.

 

I know a combination might be best, but I don't to be neither here nor there. And I know there isn't any right answers, just wanted to know your experience here.

[imron]

1. Yes.  You say you've 'completed' the HSK 3 characters, but if you've only been learning them in isolation (e.g. via flashcards) then you likely haven't learned them to the point where you can use them in context.  This leads to the awkwardness in reading that you mentioned because reading involves more than just vocab acquisition.  If you don't practice actual reading then you'll continually find yourself in a situation where you know all the words but don't understand the sentence.  Learning more words on top of that doesn't fix this problem. 

 

2. Not yet.  Consolidate the words you already know first.  Make sure you can understand them in context and not just in flashcard reviews.  Only then should you move on.  Learning more words might feel like you are learning and making progress, but it's not really progress if you can only understand them when reviewing flashcards and not in context.  It the appearance of learning without learning the skill you are interested in, because presumably you are interested in being able to read, not in building the largest vocabulary possible (and the two are not as related as you might think).  When you have consolidated HSK 3 material and are confident at reading it, then you can move on to learning HSK 4 material by learning the words by reading texts.

 

3. No. See 2 for why.

 

9 hours ago, agewisdom said:

I know a combination might be best,

A combination is best for new words - that is you should read sentences, and pick out unknown words from those sentences to learn.  You'll eventually get all the HSK words this way, especially if you are following graded content such as DuChinese and TCB, you'll just be getting them in a random order.  This way you are learning in context, and it will help you understand and remember the words more effectively.   It sounds like you haven't really been doing that for HSK 3 though, so it is important to consolidate the words you already know before doing this.

[agewisdom]

7 hours ago, imron said:

1. Yes.  You say you've 'completed' the HSK 3 characters, but if you've only been learning them in isolation (e.g. via flashcards) then you likely haven't learned them to the point where you can use them in context.  This leads to the awkwardness in reading that you mentioned because reading involves more than just vocab acquisition.  If you don't practice actual reading then you'll continually find yourself in a situation where you know all the words but don't understand the sentence.  Learning more words on top of that doesn't fix this problem. 

 

You're exactly right. That's exactly how I feel when I read a text that's above elementary or beginner level.

 

Big thanks for sharing your advice. Really appreciate it! ?

[大块头]

(The following figures and conclusions come from a term project I did for a statistics class. See a full write-up here.)

 

I made the unfortunate decision to hold off on developing a daily reading habit until after I passed the HSK 6 with a score of 183. A couple years ago I started reading every morning while continuously measuring my reading rate. This is what my performance data looked like after the first ~275 hours of practice. There are three sources of reading material here, each of increasing difficulty.

 

 

If you can find a good source of reading material that is at the appropriate level for you and you must choose between reading or increasing your vocabulary, then I would recommend taking a "breather" like you describe above. If you weren't a heritage learner I'd recommend building your vocabulary more because you are well before the point of diminishing returns.

 

I experienced a very high degree of reading rate increase when I first bit the bullet and started sitting down every day to read (see 0 to 50 hours in the graph above). As a heritage learner, you may have an even more pronounced improvement.

 

After your "breather", I'd get back to increasing your vocabulary with SRS.

[agewisdom]

9 hours ago, 大块头 said:

(The following figures and conclusions come from a term project I did for a statistics class. See a full write-up here.) 

 

@大块头 Much thanks for sharing your invaluable research and experience. I really do appreciate it and your advice as well. ?

 

I was kinda surprised that my reading was so "stuttered" even when I knew most of the characters. Mostly because most characters were used in conjunction with other characters that only became apparent after I heard them (maybe due to being a heritage learner) but not when I read them.

 

I'm going to focus substantially on reading for now and maybe just acquire new words much more slowly, maybe 1 or less a day. Best like you said, to consolidate the characters learnt first. Maybe for a period of 2-3 months.

[DavyJonesLocker]

I think in practice it's hard  to find reading material that contain 100% of the words you know so even if you are very focused on reading you will still be coming across new words, albeit in much lower frequency than a text book

 

I'd recommend Mandarin companion and Chinese breeze. They are both good for up to Hsk 3/4 

 

I'd recommend you still do your daily reviews on flashcards for known words. If you continually do that the review times will drop quickly as you continuing reading. 

 

Finally one of the problems many people make is trying to religiously stick to HSK words. I did that to up to HSK 4 and still found I couldn't speak to people nor read anything outside a text book. Now I'd say about half of my flashcard deck comes from all sorts of places like we chat messages, everyday interaction, shopping apps , etc

Now when I read books it's only the odd time I add a word in as I want the focus to be on sufficient reading exposure rather than accumulating new words.

 

[Flickserve]

1 hour ago, agewisdom said:

 

I was kinda surprised that my reading was so "stuttered" even when I knew most of the characters. 

 

Are you referring to reading out loud?

[大块头]

46 minutes ago, agewisdom said:

Mostly because most characters were used in conjunction with other characters that only became apparent after I heard them (maybe due to being a heritage learner) but not when I read them.

 

Remember, it's all about how many words you know, not how many characters. Any argument otherwise is overzealous reductionism or an attempt to sell you snake oil.

[agewisdom]

1 hour ago, Flickserve said:

Are you referring to reading out loud?

 

That's part of it. Also even when mentally reading. I think as was mentioned, there's certain combinations of characters forming words, which I don't really know. I might know the individual characters but not the words.

 

55 minutes ago, 大块头 said:

Remember, it's all about how many words you know, not how many characters.

 

Thanks. Yes, I'm beginning to see it more often. I think HSK 3 is a good base to start reading. I won't need to refer the PLECO too often but still sufficient to read the basic and elementary materials.

 

1 hour ago, DavyJonesLocker said:

I'd recommend Mandarin companion and Chinese breeze. They are both good for up to Hsk 3/4 

 

I'd recommend you still do your daily reviews on flashcards for known words. If you continually do that the review times will drop quickly as you continuing reading. 

 

Thanks. I'll use DuChinese and TCB for now but might look into the above if they're insufficient.

Definitely plan to keep reviewing the flashcards on words I do know. It's easy to forget what is learnt without proper review.

[Flickserve]

1 hour ago, agewisdom said:

. I might know the individual characters but not the words.

 

Not a problem. Just learn as you go along. 

 

 

Reading out loud is different. It depends how much you want this skill. It’s a different skill that needs to be trained, most likely because it goes through different neural pathways. You may be able to speak words normally quite well because of being a heritage speaker. But when it comes to reading out loud, the change in format throws you off your usual spoken rhythm. That results in loss of control. Such is my experience knowing spoken Cantonese first and then attempting to read some text out loud. 

 

Now how important is that ability to you? For me, it’s not that important. I need to talk and understand, and I use words as an aid for speaking. Reading out loud is not that important to me at present. In fact, I don’t need it in daily life at all. Reading text and understanding the meaning internally is enough. For me , reading text is an aid to listen increase my listening comprehension and then speaking. so I do a little of it. If I wanted to recite poetry or read out stories, then that’s a different proposition altogether.

 

 

[agewisdom]

2 hours ago, Flickserve said:

Reading out loud is different. It depends how much you want this skill. It’s a different skill that needs to be trained, most likely because it goes through different neural pathways. You may be able to speak words normally quite well because of being a heritage speaker. But when it comes to reading out loud, the change in format throws you off your usual spoken rhythm. That results in loss of control. Such is my experience knowing spoken Cantonese first and then attempting to read some text out loud. 

 

You've hit the nail on the head quite well. Even though I'm a heritage learner, I'm only at an elementary level. Listening doesn't sound too foreign, but trying to speak is indeed somewhat difficult especially when trying to process the characters as well. It's not that important for me at the moment, but still I think it's better to practice this along the way whilst I read. I don't need to aim for extreme fluency, but I would prefer to be able to read out loud smoothly... even if slowly, rather than stutter along.

[imron]

19 hours ago, agewisdom said:

It's easy to forget what is learnt without proper review.

It's ok to forget - as long as you are still regularly learning new things.  If it was important you will come across it again soon enough.  If you don't come across it again soon enough then by definition it wasn't important.

 

In my mind this is one of the worst things that arose with the proliferation of SRS - the false allure of never forgetting something that you've learnt..... as long as you stay on the hamster wheel of SRS repetitions.  It's a very seductive concept but sometimes can cause more harm than good.  Embrace forgetting some things.

[DavyJonesLocker]

12 hours ago, imron said:

 

In my mind this is one of the worst things that arose with the proliferation of SRS - the false allure of never forgetting something that you've learnt..... as long as you stay on the hamster wheel of SRS repetitions.  It's a very seductive concept but sometimes can cause more harm than good.  Embrace forgetting some things.

 

True but it's a lot easier to keep the ball rolling. Really depends on how much time you have to spare. I do think reading takes priority  but SRS  is an essential component particularly in language learning. 

Also given peoples lifestyle often don't allow for continual reading or practice , an srs system can tide you over until you start up again. For example on holiday, back in UK etc  I might not look at any Chinese for months but daily srs is a valuable stop gap . I don't add new words in during this period,  thus the review count slowly drops .  You will forget how to use these words but by not doing it , there is nothing more frustrating than restarting again and facing thousands of reviews or picking up an easy text to find half it you can't read. 

The only reason why I'd stop srs is to prevent me going postal  ?

[Flickserve]

3 hours ago, agewisdom said:

still I think it's better to practice this along the way whilst I read.

 

I went with a couple of professional teachers who asked me to read. It was an abysmal failure and I didn't enjoy it at all. They were trying to help me with tones but without any rhythm I.e. they didn't read first, I had nothing to calibrate to. So be careful of what you are reading out loud. Are you using the wrong tone but not realizing?

[agewisdom]

11 hours ago, Flickserve said:

I went with a couple of professional teachers who asked me to read. It was an abysmal failure and I didn't enjoy it at all. They were trying to help me with tones but without any rhythm I.e. they didn't read first, I had nothing to calibrate to. So be careful of what you are reading out loud. Are you using the wrong tone but not realizing?

 

Thanks for the word of caution. I'll definitely take what you've said into consideration.

 

12 hours ago, imron said:

In my mind this is one of the worst things that arose with the proliferation of SRS - the false allure of never forgetting something that you've learnt..... as long as you stay on the hamster wheel of SRS repetitions.  It's a very seductive concept but sometimes can cause more harm than good.  Embrace forgetting some things.

 

You're right. Most of us rely on SRS as a crutch without realizing it's just a tool, albeit a very useful one. Still, I think I'll still to rely on it, at least until I complete HSK 4 or 5 and obtain a somewhat acceptable measure of fluidity in reading written mandarin before I abandon it.

[imron]

12 hours ago, DavyJonesLocker said:

but SRS  is an essential component particularly in language learning. 

Useful yes, essential no.

 

12 hours ago, DavyJonesLocker said:

You will forget how to use these words but by not doing it ,

So why not read and re-read graded content on your phone.  Maybe you've read them before - but that's the point you're treating them as reviews, just like SRS.  Maybe you find them boring - but flashcard reviews aren't exactly riveting either.  Reading requires more mental effort, SRS significantly less so and so it's easier to do SRS reviews because it gives the perception of learning even if perhaps you're not really doing so.

 

12 hours ago, DavyJonesLocker said:

there is nothing more frustrating than restarting again and facing thousands of reviews

Sounds like the perfect time to nuke your deck.

 

12 hours ago, DavyJonesLocker said:

or picking up an easy text to find half it you can't read. 

Which wouldn't happen if you had been doing more reading

 

9 hours ago, agewisdom said:

Most of us rely on SRS as a crutch without realizing it's just a tool, albeit a very useful one.

It is a useful one.  My personal rule of thumb is to make sure that SRS is always secondary to other activities and never takes up the majority of my study time on any given day. e.g. if I had an hour to study I would aim to spend less than 30 mins on SRS, and preferably less than 20.  If it starts to get longer than that, then see above about nuking decks.

 

9 hours ago, agewisdom said:

Still, I think I'll still to rely on it, at least until I complete HSK 4 or 5 and obtain a somewhat acceptable measure of fluidity in reading written mandarin before I abandon it.

For sure keep using it, even HSK 6 and beyond, just don't make it the focus of your study, otherwise you'll never reach fluidity in reading (because there's more to reading than just vocab acquisition) and you'll never be able to abandon it (stuck on the hamster wheel).

 

It's always worth keeping in mind that the end goal of learning a language should involve being able to abandon SRS.

[agewisdom]

4 hours ago, imron said:

For sure keep using it, even HSK 6 and beyond, just don't make it the focus of your study, otherwise you'll never reach fluidity in reading (because there's more to reading than just vocab acquisition) and you'll never be able to abandon it (stuck on the hamster wheel).

 

It's always worth keeping in mind that the end goal of learning a language should involve being able to abandon SRS.

 

Once again, appreciate the advice. The SRS is such a comfortable crutch that it's definitely not easy to abandon it. It is PRIMARILY the focus of my study since it was quick and easy with fast feedback but I can see the drawbacks now as I start reading. Definitely will re-assess my study approach and maybe place reading on first priority now that I have about 500+ characters under my belt.