Conflict between Chinese tones and question tones?

[Ferno]

I always wondered how questions worked in Chinese... in normal languages, phrases raise in pitch, but it seems like it might interfere in a tonal language. I'm going through the popular Pimsleur Mandarin audio... question particles like "ma" and "ne" are pronounced with an elevated pitch, so when they are put at the end of a question it sounds quite natural. But when the question does not use these particles or is arranged differently, it seems the tones get distorted...

ie one very noticable example: (ignoring 3rd tone->2nd tone changes)

"ni3 you3 mei3you3 shi2liu4 kuai4 ren2min2bi4?"

(do you have sixteen Ren Min Bi?)

The "bi4" is supposed to pronounced with an abrupt, falling tone, but she says it with something between a high level and a rising tone... this makes the question pitch seem similar to English, but wouldn't that affect the meaning in a tonal language? Or are tones not that important and context-understanding allows them to be distorted or thrown out completely in questions and other pitch variations?

[liuzhou]

Normal languages?

[Shadowdh]

On that question wouldnt you end it with ma..?? as its a yes/no question...

I too thought about this as I have been studying and it seems to me that the question does not need the inflection that is often apparent in some other languages as the question is in the sentance... eg Ni xiang qu nar chi? or Ni xiang qu wo nar chi ma?..

As always I could be mistaken as this is new to me but I am getting there...

[HashiriKata]

I think a question can alter the intonational pattern of the sentence as a whole but I don't think this alteration is so significant that it'd normally alter the tone of individual words.

[Quest]

No conflict, you just raise your pitch relatively..

[Lu]

And after questions with

shi bu shi; you mei you; dong bu dong etc

or

X haishi Y

there's NEVER a ma at the end.

[skylee]

Normal languages?

Looks like we have an abnormal language here

[Shadowdh]

And after questions with

shi bu shi; you mei you; dong bu dong etc

or

X haishi Y

there's NEVER a ma at the end.

Good point... teach me for missing the obvious...

[Ferno]

No conflict, you just raise your pitch relatively..

ok you seem like you know infinitely more about the language than me, so i do not mean to offend, but it does not seem like this is the case. This is why I just couldn't ignore that phrase and had to ask about it.

The two rising tones "ren" and "min" can easily be understood as relatively raised pitch (since they're tone 2 anyway), but the "bi" sounds nothing like a 4th tone. Of course "ren min bi" in the correct order will always be understood as "people's currency" (what else could it be?), but if I did not know what "ren min bi" is and was just relying on my ear to mark the tones, I don't think I would ever be able to hear the "bi" as a falling tone in a relatively raised pitch.

(i hope you understand what i'm trying to say)

[gir]

if am not mistake

when there is ma it must sound like a 2nd tome

if there r other things like shenme shui u must make it sound like a forth tone ie the end!

@ quest is that right??

[Quest]

if am not mistake

when there is ma it must sound like a 2nd tome

if there r other things like shenme shui u must make it sound like a forth tone ie the end!

@ quest is that right??

No, ma or question words have nothign to do with the 2nd or the 4th tones. I don't think the base tone of words change in questions.

[starvken]

It seem you are talking about the tone of last character in the question sentence.Generally, every character has the only tone no mater what sentence it is in. The basic tone can’t be changed in nearly every normal sentence.

But there is exeption. For example, if 句子中有两个字（组成了一个词语）都是tone 3，then the former must be changed to tone 2.

例如，“辅”和“导”单独地念都是tone 3，but when the two character be put together, the tone should be changed into 辅2导3。

I don’t know if i explain this to the point. Because my English is 糟透了。

[LiYuanXi]

starvken is right, the tones of the last words do not change regardless of whether it is in a question or sentence. You can tell that 'ni you mei you ren min bi' is a question with the 'you mei you'.

[Lu]

And the pitch of the sentence as a whole goes up.

[Ferno]

starvken is right, the tones of the last words do not change regardless of whether it is in a question or sentence. You can tell that 'ni you mei you ren min bi' is a question with the 'you mei you'.

yes they do...

with "ma" ending questions it is easier to do because "ma" is neutral and you can make it a "question type" high level tone if you want.

[Desmond]

Where are you hearing this mysterious 币 changing from anything but a 4th tone? I've noticed that the whole sentence tone goes up, and I've noticed tonal changes in syllables for certain reasons, but I have to agree (so far) with everyone else.... I've never heard the last syllable change that drastically from its original tone unless it was some sort of mistake.

Is there an example you could send us over? Is this a recording we can listen to?

[cjbaker]

The rising pitch only occurs in some types of English questions, i.e. ones where the subject and verb switch places: "Do you have any money?"

It does not rise in other types of English questions, i.e. ones with Wh-words: "How much money do you have?". This sentence has falling pitch, despite being a question.

In Mandarin, if a sentence ever uses rising pitch to make a question, the "range" of the tones rises as a whole over the phrase (a "global rise"); I don't think you'd hear a single tone change from falling contour to rising contour as in your example. You might hear 'bi4' '币' start very high and fall just a little bit.

[stephanhodges]

I'm just learning, so I may be way off base here.

I've noticed that native Chinese speakers (I'm midwestern American, btw) will often lower the volumn level of the sentence with the last word (and this happens in English too at times). Also, duration is sometimes shortened a bit. Both of these (depending upon the surrounding vowel) are easily interpretable as a different tone, when you're like me, who generally only hears the exagerated tones heard in class.

Conversely, no matter how hard I try (unless I raise the volumn of my voice a bit), my teacher ALWAYS hears a third tone at the end of my sentences. But, ALL the other students (all English native speakers) hear the tone that I was trying for.

I'm just trying to say that our brains are always trying to interpret what they hear into "expected" sounds, not the actual sounds. Other than Tomatis training (I have no personal experience of this, however), I don't know of any way to improve this except to listen to a LOT of chinese, and constantly question yourself on what you actually heard.

Just a possibility.

[Desmond]

I'm just trying to say that our brains are always trying to interpret what they hear into "expected" sounds, not the actual sounds

I notice that sometimes I hear what I'm expecting to hear. Then I get confused cause it doesn't sound right. One recent example is "睡不着" where I thought it was (assumed it should be) "睡不觉" The second one made more sense to me, but I was like "I swear I'm not hearing a fourth tone, i'm hearing a second. It also sounded more like a "zh" than a "ji". But my brain really wanted to hear "jiao4" and just assumed I wasn't listening good enough. Eventually I got it.

and constantly question yourself on what you actually heard

So that's the moral of the story, boys and girls!

[HashiriKata]

and constantly question yourself on what you actually heard

No, if you do that you'll get the sounds ok but lose tract of what the speaker is really talking about!