Ideas on how to have a purposeful speaking lesson?

[suMMit]

How can I have an I-talki type lesson, where the teacher is not just explaining stuff to me,  that’s not a drill, but rather has a communicative purpose?

 

What can I give them that outlines a speaking lesson related to what I have recently studied and want to practice(I.e jobs, food, personal traits, hobbies, travel etc)?

 

I have tried a number of teachers. The first session is always fine, because it has the purpose of basic intro/ask/answer about each other - a genuine reason for communication. I find on subsequent lessons, I don’t know how to get a purpose to speak.

 

-Discussing an article would be great, but is too had right now, because my level/vocab is not high enough

 

-I tried following a book together, but they seem to focus too much on explaining grammar or vocabulary. I can do this on my own! I need them to practice speaking and listening with.

 

*I’m at an elementary level, been studying for around 8 months consistently.

[Flickserve]

8 months is not long. 

 

My experience is that we cannot have too high expectations within each lesson. I used to use many different teachers and just have up to five lessons. Of course, there’s a lot of repetition and this is what I like. Deep and meaningful topics are much harder because, as you say, our vocabulary is limited and frankly speaking, different people have different ideas of what’s interesting, especially cross culturally. 

 

As as a result, I am pretty good at describing myself and speaking for five minutes and then after that, crap at everything else. 

 

Even my my own hobbies are really difficult to discuss because I have in depth knowledge of it and the teachers don’t know what I am taking about. 

 

As for the over explanations, I mainly go for the community tutors who I think probably explain a bit less. 

 

I suggest you record your lessons and note down what topics you covered. Then switch to a different teacher and cover the same topic. 

 

Mobile phones are quite a good topic:

how long have you used the present model

when will you upgrade

how much does it cost

what is the most popular 

etc

 

[889]

This is a difficult problem. Ideally your teacher will gauge your level and interest and come prepared to match them. Rarely happens, at least at the italki level.

 

Better to go with scenarios: you're ordering at a restaurant, you're reporting a stolen passport to the police, you're calling your apartment owner with some complaints, etc. This of course requires a teacher who'll quickly and easily become a waiter, a desk sergeant, a landlord etc and play along with the game. Again, it'll probably take some time to find a good teacher of this sort.

 

[NinjaTurtle]

suMMit

 

The whole idea is to have conversations on basic topics. Please look at my list of topics in this thread:

 

https://www.chinese-forums.com/forums/topic/58423-what-is-fluency-listening-vs-speaking/

 

(My post is the sixth from the bottom of the thread on the first page. It is the long list of conversation topics.)

 

For each lesson, choose a topic, for example, pets. Tell your teacher you want to discuss pets in your next lesson. But do your homework first — learn and review all of the vocabulary you will need for the topic. (So the first step for each topic is to put together a vocabulary list, which can take a long time.)  Do not discuss a topic until you have taken all the necessary time to have all your vocabulary ready.

 

This should include questions you can ask your teacher. Have a list of questions ready to go before you start the lesson.

 

You should give a short (one to three minute) speech on the topic. Then open it up to questions.

 

As you progress, you can eventually have your teacher also prepare a short speech on the topic. You give your speech, do questions and answers, then your teacher gives his/her speech, then you do more questions and answers.

 

(All of this assumes your Chinese is at a high enough level to have these types of discussions in Chinese. Is it?)

 

Let us know how it goes.

 

 

[mungouk]

9 hours ago, suMMit said:

communicative purpose

 

Are you familiar with the approach of Communicative Language Learning, and hoping that your teacher will also be able to use this?

 

There are quite probably cultural differences in learning and teaching approaches, depending on where you and your teacher grew up (and learned).

 

On a very basic level, I've been very happy with my italki teacher... we generally chat about what's been happening recently for 10-15 minutes and then get on with our textbook stuff.  Sometimes more, sometimes less, but I always make a point of trying to introduce vocabulary relevant to my own life, even if I have to look it up myself beforehand (which I often do).

 

Ultimately I think it's probably about finding a teacher that can respond to your personal needs, rather than starting immediately with a didactic approach that they assume fits everyone. 

[889]

My point is that "we'll talk about pets next week" isn't focused enough: the conversation can easily deadend. Instead make it a visit to a pet store; you've got a small flat and a small child and want suggestions for something suitable. "That iguana looks cute -- what do you feed him?"

 

[abcdefg]

In my experience, not all teachers of Chinese are good at doing what you want. Some prefer to give a "mini-lecture" like their teachers gave them when they were beginning students in a large classroom. This is especially true if the teacher is native Chinese.

 

Agree with the above suggestions. It will take some effort to find a match and make the lessons work the way you want them to. 

[Bibu]

a good lesson needs careful preparation by  tutor, for the price on itakie i can hardly imagine the tutors would have much preparation per the specific learner. So 一言堂 is a easy solution..

 

Try to find the tutor with certificate  or graduates major of teaching chinese as a foreign language. The oral part, practice in a situation  is the key , the tutor should facilitate this environment.

[DavyJonesLocker]

12 hours ago, 889 said:

My point is that "we'll talk about pets next week" isn't focused enough: the conversation can easily deadend. Instead make it a visit to a pet store; you've got a small flat and a small child and want suggestions for something suitable. "That iguana looks cute -- what do you feed him?"

 

 

Yes i agree with this.  I use to do this with my language teacher, we would set out a scenario have 30 words and a few grammar points, preprinted on a page from the lesson of that day and as i made up a scenario, we would cross out the words. Naturally not all words would smoothly fit into the story but creative imagination you get make a good go at it. It requires  some pre planning on the students part, not just turn up and speak on the fly. 

 

4 hours ago, abcdefg said:

In my experience, not all teachers of Chinese are good at doing what you want. Some prefer to give a "mini-lecture" like their teachers gave them when they were beginning students in a large classroom. This is especially true if the teacher is native Chinese.

 

 

almost every chinese language teacher i had was like this, very much a one way flow of information. Many can't break away from the way they were taught throughout life. 

 

Two factors i consider crucial in selecting and utilising a good teacher.

 

1. the student must put in an effort, offer suggestions, not just sit there waiting to be spoon feed (I would do all the preparation in what i mentioned above, not the teacher). It's hard for the teacher to gauge whether the student is learning or not especially in China where saving face is important. When I teach, specialist topics, every friday I would have  a review with the students and tell them what works and doesn't work. i got a lot of puzzled faces at the start but after two or three weeks, every one enthusiastically participates . Everyone benefits that way in my view.

 

2. You need to have a teacher that will fit your learning style (if one-on-one naturally). Whilst you can try adopt to theirs it more often that not, will fail. As abcdefg noted, the mass flow of information that many like to do,  simply didn't work with me. Most teachers like to get you a full over description of each word with it goes in one ear and out the other. That is highly inefficient with me. I just need to check PLECO and practice a pile of sentences with the teacher. I learn a lot from my mistakes!  Each to their own of course

 

 

13 hours ago, mungouk said:

On a very basic level, I've been very happy with my italki teacher... we generally chat about what's been happening recently for 10-15 minutes and then get on with our textbook stuff.  Sometimes more, sometimes less, but I always make a point of trying to introduce vocabulary relevant to my own life, even if I have to look it up myself beforehand (which I often do).

 

 

whilst I agree with this, i think one must bear in mind that your paying a teacher and not just a language partner or talking to some random dude on the street. Many teachers i had never corrected the students on just about anything, pronunciation, tones, grammar, nor encouraged them to use new words, grammar patterns etc. I used to sit there thinking "that student clearly pronounces  that word wrong every time, why doesn't she correct him"? I would too have many mistakes but often you are unaware of it until someone points it out several times.  

 

 

 

[mungouk]

2 hours ago, DavyJonesLocker said:

Many teachers i had never corrected the students on just about anything

 

If you're doing a fluency exercise then stopping to correct every mistake is totally counterproductive. 

 

Of course, there are good teachers and bad teachers.  Good ones know how much correction is appropriate and when best to do it — for example, monitor during conversation and correct afterwards during a group class.

 

My teacher does subtly correct my errors in tone while we're chatting in our 1:1 classes, but I don't find it gets in the way.

 

[DavyJonesLocker]

19 minutes ago, mungouk said:

 

If you're doing a fluency exercise then stopping to correct every mistake is totally counterproductive

 

Yes, Indeed, wasn't suggesting that, but you need to correct some right? Or at least after the conversion is over, natural break. Etc. 

 

The teachers I had never corrected any.

[NinjaTurtle]

Davy,

 

When I teach a private lesson, I encourage the student to bring a device and record the lesson. When they do a short speech (as I described above), first we do questions and answers, then we play back the tape and I point out out all of their mistakes. This way, both goals are achieved.

 

As I have pointed out elsewhere, whenever a new grammar point or vocabulary point is learned, I immediately use that point and ask the student one or two questions. Then I have the student ask me back the same questions.

[suMMit]

Thanks for all the ides and suggestions. I'm going to try these. 

[david387]

 I'm wondering if you're getting enough repetition? It can be very good to go over the same thing multiple times.

 

For example, you said that going over an article together was too difficult. But if you go over the same article a few times, surely you would be able to talk about it much more easily than when you started.

 

You might also want to consider having some focus words each time. Maybe there are five new vocabulary words they want to make sure and use several times during your conversation.

 

Then in the next lesson, don't just start with five new words but first go over the words you cover Ed last time and practice them again. You can make practice sentences using the words. You can go over your pronunciation of those words. You can make sure you know whether or not these words are nouns or verbs or adjectives. 

 

Then involve your teacher and the organization of your learning experience. Ask them to make a few notes about the lesson and keep them in a document that you can review from time to time. You can refer back to it and often a previous topic is one of the best things you could work on today. Obviously it will be a little different than the last time and you'll learn more.

[Wurstmann]

On 2019/7/23 at 6:52 AM, DavyJonesLocker said:

that student clearly pronounces  that word wrong every time, why doesn't she correct him

See this.

[roddy]

You need to be flexible in what you correct and when. I'm not going to stop an advanced Chinese English learner who makes a he/she error, because that's probably going to happen forever. I'll raise it as a minor point afterwards, but that's all. But an elementary student who's just had a lesson on pronouns - that's getting called up immediately. 

 

Minor errors can often be corrected in a way that mimics a fluent conversation anyway: 

 

"I went to swimming pool yesterday and..."

"Oh, the swimming pool, you should have told me..."

"... I will! So, when I got to the swimming pool..."

 

Student needs to be on the ball and used to the style, but well-known language they've just slipped up on can often be triaged as you go like that. Fluency is great, but so is training the student to pay attention to what they're saying as they go and not fail to use all the stuff you taught them last year. An error overlooked is an error cemented. Do beware driving interlocutors demented.

 

For speaking lessons - an information gap is often needed. One student has train timetables, one has hotel info, one has a tourist brochure, and they have to plan a city break. That kind of thing. 

[Wurstmann]

19 minutes ago, roddy said:

"I went to swimming pool yesterday and..."

"Oh, the swimming pool, you should have told me..."

"... I will! So, when I got to the swimming pool..."

Mistakes like this happen when you start speaking/writing too early and you don't have a complete model of the language in your head yet. If the student had read 20 books and watched 2000 hours of TV before starting yo output, do you really think he wouldn't have noticed himself that the article was missing from his sentence?

If I'm being honest I don't really understand why people like to struggle through lessons like this. It's much easier and much more fun to speak once you already know how to say almost anything. 

[roddy]

2 minutes ago, Wurstmann said:

do you really think he wouldn't have noticed himself that the article was missing from his sentence?

 

Other specific language points are available. Certainly I think learners make mistakes below their level, particularly when rushed, distracted, thinking about the new complex grammar they need to use.

[Moshen]

Quote

I'm not going to stop an advanced Chinese English learner who makes a he/she error, because that's probably going to happen forever.

 

After he's been 35 years in the US, I still correct my husband every time when he mixes up he and she, because it's so disconcerting to Americans to have, say, Hilary Clinton or the female neighbor down the street referred to as "he." 

 

I think many native Chinese speakers, even advanced ones, have no clue how horrible this particular mistake comes off to most Westerners and how much it can get in the way of communication.

 

 

[Moshen]

Quote

If I'm being honest I don't really understand why people like to struggle through lessons like this. It's much easier and much more fun to speak once you already know how to say almost anything. 

 

Some of us have no choice.  Because of work or travel, we need to speak even when we know we're making lots of mistakes.  Talking with a teacher or language partner is a simulacrum of the real-world desire or necessity to be understood.

 

In addition, waiting to speak a foreign language until you can speak next to perfectly can cement lack of confidence and the bad habit of needing to rehearse everything in one's head before opening one's mouth.  After I watched a couple of "Speak ___ (foreign language) in a week" videos from a couple of different smart loudmouthed travelers, I realized that there is an art to making oneself understood with a minimum of vocabulary in the new foreign language.  If you don't even try, you're cheating yourself.  When I'm in a foreign country, I always blunder ahead with whatever I think I know, knowing that I will be making awful mistakes.

 

My parents moved abroad after they retired, and I watched my father study the language there very hard.  But he felt he'd be embarrassed if he said things wrongly, so he held back from actually using the language there unless there was absolutely no other way to get something done.  He was frustrated with his lack of progress!

 

I think it's a good thing if language learners can detach from being embarrassed about mistakes, even while always trying to improve.