Suggestions for long-term stay in China

[matteo]

Hey all, 

I'd like to ask for your opinion and advice on my plan for a medium to long-term stay in China. 

 

A little bit about me

I'm in my thirties and live in NZ, where I work as an engineer. I'm passionate about literature and languages and in my spare time I study Mandarin and teach English to refugees. 

I started studying some 3 years ago with my girlfriend almost as a joke...we were taking it easy at the start but soon realized that it is kind of an all-or-nothing commitment. As we were really enjoying it and both have a strong interest in the Chinese culture we kept at it and increased our efforts, and I think for the last couple of years we must have been studying about a couple of hours a day. At the moment our level is HSK 5ish, although admittedly we never took the test. 

 

The plan

We (me and girlfriend) love travelling, and are starting to feel a little constrained by our comfy routines, so we are planning to spend a period of time living and working in China. For several reasons, (unfortunately) this can't happen before mid-2020, but at least it gives us plenty of time to plan, as well as to improve our Mandarin. 

My main objectives are:

-          Experiencing China as much as possible, not much from a touristic point of view (although I will try to do that as well) but from a cultural and human perspective.

-          Improve my Mandarin to a point where I can at least use it effectively in any social situation

-          Try and do something different from what I do now, which is mainly office based. (This is a bonus point but not a deal breaker.)

 

Now, there are about a gazillion ways this can be done, here’s some thoughts:

1)      I could simply look for a job in an engineering company and move there. Sooo boring I know! And my partner could follow me up with a tourist or student visa, and then look for a job. Or who knows maybe that’s the final push for me to get happily married. Mmmm.

Advantages

-          less risky, no need to be on a constant budget

-          can be a  long-term solution. In the long term many things can be done.

Disadvantages

-          obviously that would place me smack in the middle of the expat community, probably an active effort would be necessary to practice Mandarin.

-          Time to study would be very limited, probably just as much as now

 

2)      Embrace the student life. Find a reasonably priced school allowing us both to study for several months while anxiously monitoring the ever-diminishing size of our meagre savings, covered in rags and surviving on white rice. Ok maybe that’s a bit dramatic but you get it.

Advantages

-          full-time study

-          freedom

-          time to look around and figure out what to do next

-          probably quite fun

Disadvantages

-          I have some doubts with regards to whether a language school would be suitable for what I want to do. I want to study hard and be in an immersive environment as much as possible, definitely don’t care much about partying with English-speaking teenagers. Also, I have the feeling that most classroom programs tend to teach HSK-style rather than focusing on everyday language, listening and speaking, which is what I’m most interested in (by the way I don’t have solid basis for stating this, so it’s a bit of a preconception, I’d be happy to be refuted) The only solution for this would be resorting to one-on-(two) lessons, but the cost is really prohibitive so that would drastically reduce the studying time to just a few weeks…not an ideal solution…

-          Not really a long-term solution. I mean, the money is gonna run out at some point and then what?

 

3)      Teach English a few hours (say 20 a week) and study the rest of the time. Now, I’m aware that for some reason this is unpopular…but I actually see it as a very good compromise.

Advantages

-          Sustainable (at least it allows paying for a share of the expenses)

-          Would get you in touch with a local environment (the school)

-          You do something interesting that could potentially be useful for a future career…or future travelling experience

Disadvantages

-          You can’t study full time

 

The other main point of discussion of course would be the location. Our main constraint is my girlfriend’s asthma condition, which would make living anywhere with high air pollution levels possibly dangerous.  At the moment by reading online and listening to people’s suggestions we are considering:

 

Kunming – temperate and green (?), highly sponsored in the forum, apparently has got good rock climbing…only problem is a bit isolated which makes moving around expensive or difficult

 

Haerbin – apparently a very good place for studying and living, must be a very interesting place…also very isolated and very cold…

 

Qingdao – sounds attractive as it’s on the sea and I hear an enjoyable little city, definitely in a better position than the previous options and maybe with better chances to find jobs. Not sure it is still considered pollution-free?

 

Hainan – this came up recently as my girlfriend met a person from there and she totally convinced her that it is paradise on earth, waiting for foreigners to give them high-paid jobs for no reason whatsoever. I should stress that the conversation was in mandarin so she might have gotten it all wrong.

 

Well, this got quite long, I’ll add anything that should come to my mind later…in the meantime thanks for reading and for your precious suggestions.

On a final note, watch BBC’s documentary “The Planets” – the 2019 one. Mindblowing. You will appreciate how nothing I wrote has the slightest importance and the Earth is doomed anyways.

 

[abcdefg]

20 hours ago, matteo said:

Kunming – temperate and green (?), highly sponsored in the forum, apparently has got good rock climbing…only problem is a bit isolated which makes moving around expensive or difficult

 

I have lived in Kunming a long time and have been happy here. The weather is good overall. Today is late July and it's about 20 degrees outside. We do have frequent rain in the summer months, but seldom have typhoons or floods. Just rain. Late spring was hot, but never above the upper 30's. January is cold, down to freezing, but it seldom snows.

 

Apartments here, at least in the older parts of the city, don't have heating. For the most part it isn't needed. Some people who come from tropical locations find it difficult to adjust. I just put on a heavy sweater. 

 

Don't know anything about rock climbing. We are surrounded by mountains on three sides. 

 

Not sure what you mean by isolated. I think we are pretty well connected by high speed rail to other Chinese cities. The airport has lots of flights to other parts of Asia. It's a SE Asia hub. Busy, modern airport, opened 6 or 7 years ago. 

 

The air quality is good compared to places like Beijing and Shanghai, but it is still not pristine. Might want to take a look at one of the real-time AQI monitoring sites. Today it is 142, orange, interpreted as "unhealthy for sensitive groups." AQI is seldom green, meaning "good."  (Here's one site I've used: https://waqi.info/). 

 

Cost of living -- I don't know how to quantify it meaningfully. I get the impression it is considerably less than the first-tier cities, but more than small towns. It's a big city, over 5 million residents, and the capital of the province. Some parts are more modern and ritzy than others. I live in a section that is OK, but far from glamorous.  

 

I don't know much about the job market, but there are always ads for English teachers wanted on GoKunming. You might have a look there. https://www.gokunming.com/en/ 

[roddy]

Sounds to me like you should enroll at a Chinese university for a semester or two. Pick somewhere provincial that you like the sound of. Accept that the quality of the teaching is likely to be variable and you'll be missing some classes and supplementing with self-study and tutors in your spare time. Do a bit of private English tutoring on the quiet to boost funds. Take some trips.

 

You could be in a very good position re teaching English - find a supply of engineers who need / want job-specific English tutoring and you'd be making decent money. 

 

Your girlfriend is not necessarily wrong about Hainan. You've got plenty of time - I'd plan a trip to visit a few cities, drop in on a few schools, and see what takes your fancy. Nice position to be in...

[Shelley]

I wondered if you had ever been, even just on a 2 week package holiday?

 

I think it might be a good idea if you can fit it into your plans to have a holiday for 2 weeks, one of those whirlwind package tours that take you to all the tourist destinations in 2 weeks.

This way you can have a taste of china before committing to a long term stay.

 

This would give you a good idea of what its like in general and more specifically what the air quality is like in different places.

 

I would also be seriously considering medical insurance or the equivalent as an asthma sufferer can need medical help without notice. You also need to organise medicines, you may not be able to get the type you are used to using and it isn't going to be cheap. I have asthma and I personally would not go that far abroad. I have been learning Chinese now for more years than I care to remember but never had any intention of going because of my health. I also have a serious allergy to peanuts, in china this is pretty much a death sentence as peanuts are used in about almost every thing, even if just the oil to fry things in.

 

 

1 hour ago, matteo said:

On a final note, watch BBC’s documentary “The Planets” – the 2019 one. Mindblowing. You will appreciate how nothing I wrote has the slightest importance and the Earth is doomed anyways

If you think the earth is doomed anyway, then it is. You need to fight to protect it and fix it.

 

I hope it all works out for you and you have a fantastic time in China.

 

[Enjune Zhang]

It takes great courage to set foot in the brand new area you know nothing about. Quite admirable to me.

It is said that you want to stay in China next to the native to experience how their life would be and the culture behind the city, improving Mandarin along the way.Therefore, two things are worth your attention. 

Whether the local people there speak Mandarin in most occasion of their daily life? There are other pronunciation beside Mandarin in Chinese, say, Cantonese in Guangdong province, dialects in Shanghai, Sichuan, Dongbei,etc. And local people of these areas mentiones above may not speak Mandarin as frequently and usually as people in Beijing do. I am not saying that you should limit your journey due to the limit in language. If you would like to stay in cities of these areas, choose the city with more external population from other provinces, so the mix of people will help them unify the language a bit and make Mandarin available. Stay in the center business district instead of the countryside of a city, so you could come across Mandarin more frequently by being close to those applying it the most.

Figure out whether you like culture of ancient China or a mix of oriental or western. Choose the costal city if you like the latter, and stay in Xi'an, Nanjing, Beijing where the capital of ancient dynasty was established.

You could have a better glance of all the areas in China via the website below to know which style suits you the best.

https://m.mafengwo.cn/

https://m.meet99.com/lvyou

They are the websites recommending places of traveling for Chinese people based on provinces, and you could locate the certain city by clicking the province corresponding, for example, find Shandong if you need to check the city Qingdao in it.

As for finding a job in China, you could try to check if company in your country has any subsidiary or branch located in the place you are going to stay. Linkedin is another platform for you to post your information for HR in Chinese company to know you. You may search local university and English teaching agency to see if they are in want of a foreign teacher.

Have a Chinese bank account so you could transfer money to the wechat or alipay, paying bill without cash but scanning the QR code. Know how to get useful information like local people do by searching the thing or mini program you need in wechat, weibo, alipay, etc, for example, transportation code when you need to take a bus or subway, official account telling you where the bus you are waiting for is.

No tips needed in restaurant. Bring the adaptor if the plug is not designed Chinese standard. And be well prepared to the culture shock. Good luck to you.

[ChTTay]

Also depends on the standard of living you’re after. Working as an Engineer in China most likely will pay more than in NZ as it’s likely you’d be working for a NZ (or other western country) company but then they’d be sending you to China as an expat. I happen to have a friend who is an engineer, he works in China for months at a time before taking some time out in the U.K. then going back again. It’s all project based with differing lengths. My friend is partly in an office and partly out there supervising / training Chinese staff who are working. I guess you could try and find work with a Chinese company but no idea if they hire westerners directly like that. As far as I’m aware they get put up in very nice places, nice benefits etc. If you do this I’d kind a western company with an opening based on China. Also, engineering projects usually aren’t in places like Beijing and Shanghai so it would actually be pretty easy to not fall into an expat bubble. Depends what type of engineering you do.  

 

As an English teacher you likely won’t be getting paid too much. Also, 20 teaching hours a week will still end up being about 30 hours total if you include planning time. Assuming you actually put effort in and do plan (recommended) then at first it would likely take you longer. Once you have the hang of it you’d be quicker. Finding jobs is easy. Loads of websites. 

 

As Roddy mentions, being a student for a couple of semesters could be a good option for you. 

 

Personally, I’d take the engineering in China route. That’s just me though!

[abcdefg]

8 hours ago, Enjune Zhang said:

Whether the local people there speak Mandarin in most occasion of their daily life? There are other pronunciation beside Mandarin in Chinese, say, Cantonese in Guangdong province, dialects in Shanghai, Sichuan, Dongbei,etc. And local people of these areas mentiones above may not speak Mandarin as frequently and usually as people in Beijing do. I am not saying that you should limit your journey due to the limit in language. If you would like to stay in cities of these areas, choose the city with more external population from other provinces, so the mix of people will help them unify the language a bit and make Mandarin available.

 

I agree with 张先生, this is an important point, especially early in the language-learning process. I lived part of several years in Zhuhai 珠海 and found it very good for studying Chinese because, as 张先生 says, it's a "melting pot" city where a huge percentage of the population comes from other parts of China. Putonghua 普通话 is therefore commonly used. Even though it is located in Guangdong 广东, one hears much less Cantonese 广东话/baiyu白话 day to day than in nearby Guangzhou 广州。

 

Kunming is not so good on that score. Lots and lots of dialect here. Most local people speak dialect at home and among themselves at work. They only switch to Mandarin when they want to talk to you, but it is a strain. They don't like doing it and don't speak it well. Heavy accents and non-standard expressions are frequent. Children grow up only knowing dialect until teachers force them to learn Mandarin in school. On breaks between classes in the playground and at lunch, they immediately revert to dialect. 

[abcdefg]

Today the air pollution is "moderate" -- in the yellow zone at 63. Perhaps improved because it rained last night. 

[matteo]

Thank you very much everyone for you replies!

I really like the idea of studying in a uni, I did not consider it earlier as I tend to think about it as associated with less casual studies and programs that last several years. 

I'll surely have a look at what's there in terms of Chinese classes for foreigners, and what the requirements are. I wonder if a casual student of age close to 35 could try to get a scholarship or whether it would be a complete waste of time. 

 

The AQI website is quite interesting, should probably spend a bit of time checking it out. Most industrial cities in Europe seem to average a yearly yellowish PM2.5 index, and even super-clean cities like Auckland have quite a bit of yellow here and there. It makes me think that yellow is probably very acceptable, although I guess that getting a good idea of how much the different particles and concentrations affect health is not straightforward.

 

 

 

[nicklin]

In terms of how close what people speak on 'the streets' being close to Mandarin, then Qingdao and Haerbin would be the first choice if that is the priority. Hainan has its own dialect which is v v different from Mandarin, more closely related to the Fujian dialects. Think other contributors have already covered the air quality / jobs aspect pretty well.

 

In terms of cost of living, having lived in Shanghai and Hong Kong, costs of living in Kunming are *much* lower, probably 1/3 of Shanghai and 1/5 of Hong Kong!

[ChTTay]

8 hours ago, matteo said:

It makes me think that yellow is probably very acceptable, although I guess that getting a good idea of how much the different particles and concentrations affect health is not straightforwa

Yeah, world health organisation talks about above 50 being unhealthy but these days more and more places are facing increasing pollution. 

 

If you did go down the expat engineer route it’s very likely the company office would have air purifiers. Somewhere like Beijing these are common place in many homes (almost all foreigners, increasingly more Chinese) and offices. International schools, offices, hospitals etc often have inbuilt purification systems (rather than stand alone units). Anyway, purification units are affordable now so it’s no issue. 

 

I studied at University for 2 semesters in Beijing. Most used to let you pay per semester. If you pay yourself they have essentially no requirements to let you in. Just be over 18, have enough money. 

[Wurstmann]

On 2019/7/23 at 12:12 PM, Shelley said:

I think it might be a good idea if you can fit it into your plans to have a holiday for 2 weeks, one of those whirlwind package tours that take you to all the tourist destinations in 2 weeks.

This way you can have a taste of china before committing to a long term stay.

I don't know. Going to China on a holiday is very different from living there long term. You will probably find everything new and fascinating and ignore a lot of the bad aspects.

@matteo says they have a "strong interest in the Chinese culture", so I think a longer stay will give him the opportunity to really experience said culture. Especially since what most westerners think of as Chinese culture is radically different from what is actually going on in the country.

[Shelley]

6 minutes ago, Wurstmann said:

I don't know. Going to China on a holiday is very different from living there long term. You will probably find everything new and fascinating and ignore a lot of the bad aspects.

 

Yes, entirely different but possibly still valuable as away to check out the air, the climate and other such things that may be important.

 

I often have to bring my friends recently returned from holiday that are now full of plans to go and live there (where ever) back to earth. I remind them that will have clean the toilet, do the laundry, cook, shop for food, clean, pay bills and Work. This last one is the clincher, they then realise that it was only great because they had nothing to do all day except lie on the beach etc or what ever they enjoyed doing.

 

If you go on a 2 week tour with all this in mind you should be able to make some sensible decisions.

[DavyJonesLocker]

I kind of agree with Shelly. Better to dip your toe in the pool rather than dive in head first. 

Only after several holiday trips to China did I contemplate living there but I am not sure I would have just gone if I never stepped foot in the country before. It's easy to idolise a country from a far but when you see a lot of spitting, yelling, spitting, queue skipping , rudeness it kind of taints your desire to live there   at times. 

 

Each to their own really ,  nature of your character, personal circumstances.  Better try and fail than never try at all. 

[matteo]

? these are all very good and sensible suggestions, but yeah they are also extremely dependent on each person and what he wants. 

Quote

Each to their own really ,  nature of your character, personal circumstances.  Better try and fail than never try at all.

 

I enjoy visiting for a week just like anyone, but it feels like going for a day at the zoo to try and decide if you want to buy a pet.  We've been to China a few weeks in different occasions (my girlfriend longer than me I admit)...for sure better than nothing but I'm not too sure whether it really helps in figuring out what one can expect by living there. I agree with @Wurstmann in saying that a longer stay is necessary to really get beneath the surface of any place and culture.  

 

We've been living in different countries before and are living far from home even now. My impression of these experiences is that it is not as hard as one thinks, as long as you accept that you'll have to change your habits..sometimes radically. I mean, if you're not going to a war zone there's only so much that can go wrong, and at the end of the day you don't really want things to be super "easy" otherwise where would the adventure be? 

We are totally in the "dreaming" stage now and therefore for sure softening the edge of things but is that necessarily a negative thing? I think when doing something like this you need to get yourself into a very positive mindset, precisely because you'll have to face many difficulties. 

 

By the way, I've read a few very positive articles on Xiamen, which apparently for some reason is not extremely polluted. There isn't much on the forum on it tough, anyone has any experience of it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Szymon456]

@matteo what an amazing opportunity you have - or create for yourself I really envy you and wish to be in the same position (though I'm in China ). And you get to HSK5 without coming here - again envy (in positive sense) and strong motivation for me, seeing people put the effort just like that.

 

Now to the point, first a bit sharing experiences:

I've been living here for 10 years nearly (and you may laugh if you find, that I don't speak that much Chinese), and lived in a couple of countries before that. I came to China 'head first' as someone pointed - without ever being here before, and actually without knowing much of the culture either(I was more into Japan actually). It was part of my MBA program. My destination was Shanghai. I saw pictures, super modern city, skyscrapers, shopping etc. WHAT A DISAPPOINTMENT it was on my arrival. Mainly because of the location within the city, close to south railway station which is far from all this picturesque places. Everything was grey - ugly buildings. On the sunny day we would not see the sun - due to the pollution. Standards of cleanliness were below anything I experienced anywhere before. Toilets and shoilets (like the shower with toilet together) were quite shocking. 

 

So to put it shortly - consider to get disappointed. And that was Shanghai. If you pick Qingdao or Kunming - it will be only worse.

On the bright side - I wouldn't have been here for the 10 years, if it was that awful only. There's so many beautiful things to see, and the differences you can get used to.

 

Now about you specifically:

Destination:

I also suggest to get a short holiday first, to get to know different cities. To get to know what kind of environment makes you feel nice. You listed some cities, but there's much more interesting choices, e.g. namely Chengdu, Xi'an, Nanjing, Suzhou (assuming we are avoiding the big cities like SH, BJ, GZ, SZ). Picking this kind of medium size city or even small town I believe is a great choice to get better feel of local culture. Living in Shanghai wouldn't be much different from living in Tokyo or London.

 

Harbin - I never been too, but you can expect a lot of Russian influence, and like you say super cold. I'd never consider it knowing the other cities I know.

Qingdao (and most other seaside cities) - forget about the 'close to the sea' thing. The beach is rocky (at least section I walk to)and people rarely swim in the sea. Don't want to offend anybody living there, but on my visit I found nothing that attractive in that city (as a tourist); though it does have its share of attractions.

Xiamen - similar as above with the beach/sea thing. There was sand beach, but it's not something I'd enjoy going to for relaxing - it's dirty, sand not that nice. My impression was that the surrounding was a bit greener than Qingdao though. If you like seafood - cool. Other than that - to me was same as other cities in China.

Kunming - well if you consider this region, why not go all into Dali old town instead? More beautiful, you can have relaxed life close to nature, some lakes , mountains, great food etc. I've been to both few times, and if I could choose to live in one of them for a year - Dali old town without doubts. It's tourists town, but it has a lot of charm.

Hainan - I haven't been to and don't have much impression other than being flooded with mainland tourists - so no comments.

 

Everyone is different. I like mountains, nature but also old architecture. Dali old town for me would be like a dream place to just spend relaxing year or half to get to know culture, learn language. And the food is amazing. Another a bit more modern choice would be something like Suzhou or Nanjing given their proximity to huge number of attraction, interesting towns (like within 300km). More pollution though and terrible summer heat. 

 

 

Language:

People already mentioned that you have to consider local dialects. If you want to speak like a pirate - yeah pick Beijing   Consider though who are you going to hang-out with. Middle-aged ayi's and uncles who speak dialect or mandarin with heavy accent; or some younger people (hopefully making some friends)? So of course you will come across people with local dialect, but they are not necessary the people on who you will practice your mandarin most often.

 

What to do:

For me this is no brainer. If you can afford that (time and money wise) - just study. In the end you say you want to experience the country and culture. I don't know English teacher jobs, but the regular ones are exhausting. You work 9am-6pm, with the transportation and regular extra hours it becomes 8am-7pm, eat dinner, relax and go sleep. When was your time to experience the culture?

 

No point of wasting your time teaching English full time(though as NZ national you qualify). Unless you want to volunteer (like you say you teach refugees, so perhaps it's something you fancy), maybe teach kids in one of those smaller towns. In that case I'd say - study, and then spend some afternoons in part-time teaching/helping out.

 

Once you get to HSK6 and happy with your experiences - just find work in your field. As people suggested, being send by a multinational corporation to China is usually a better option than finding the work directly here; but these expat packages are getting less common; and local salaries are increasing as well. Engineering jobs are plenty if you are bi-lingual it will not take much time to find one after. 

 

[ChTTay]

I don’t think you need to dip your toe in. Just do it! Move to China. It sounds like you’ve got lots of choices available to you so actually you could pursue them all and see which one really jumps out at you. If there aren’t even any suitable engineering jobs then that’s ruled out but maybe you find a great Chinese course? Maybe you find a kindergarten job 8-12 mornings only that lets you study pretty much full time anyway!?! Who knows. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Szymon456 said:

I don't know English teacher jobs, but the regular ones are exhausting. You work 9am-6pm, with the transportation and regular extra hours it becomes 8am-7pm, eat dinner, relax and go sleep.

Have you ever even been a teacher? No one I know works like this here. 

[Shelley]

If I had known that you have both visited China before and are living abroad now I would never have suggested "a dip your toe visit" you have done that.

 

I have to agree with some others and say just go, you can always leave if it becomes untenable for any reason.

 

Go, enjoy, learn and have some great adventures.

[Szymon456]

On 7/26/2019 at 3:09 PM, ChTTay said:

Have you ever even been a teacher? No one I know works like this here. 

I think I very clearly stated that I'm writing from a NON-teaching perspective, to quote myself "I don't know English teacher jobs, but the regular ones are exhausting"

 

So from my experience of working regular office work - I highly recommend not to do that, if you want to get to know the culture. Of course work culture is also different and important to understand if OP plan to stay here long term - but that's something you can do after 6-12 months of enjoying life.

[ChTTay]

5 hours ago, Szymon456 said:

to quote myself "I don't know English teacher jobs, but the regular ones are exhausting"

 

“But the regular ones are exhausting” ... so actually you don’t know about those regular ones either? Which is kind of the point I was making. I won’t quote myself. Advising someone not to do something (or to do something) when you actually don’t know about it isn't very helpful.

 

(Just to be clear I am a regular teacher in China. We do exist)