Tone changes: 4th tone followed by 3rd tone (?)

[Jan Finster]

I have a quick beginner question:

 

I know that with two 4th tones the first of both tones becomes a "half fourth tone".

(https://chinesefor.us/lessons/chinese-two-fourth-tones-half-change-rule/)

 

I wonder if a 4th tone is followed by a 3rd tone, do you:

a) only go down from 5 to 2 and then speak the third tone as  2-1 or

b) go down all the way 5-1 and then go back up to 2 to do the 2-1?

 

 

 

 

[Tomsima]

5 hours ago, Jan Finster said:

I know that with two 4th tones the first of both tones becomes a "half fourth tone".

Umm what? Not to my knowledge is this a rule..? Two 4th tones next to each other can be pronounced differently according to the compound, and if anything its often the other way round (ie. the second of the two is a 'half' fourth). I'm not a member of this website, so can't view the video you posted to hear her explanation, but it seems wrong to me on the surface.

As for your question, the third will usually glide smoothly from the falling fourth tone, no need to go back up to restart

[889]

I remember being taught that in 谢谢 for example, both are shortened a bit, the second more than the first, and the second starting lower than the first.

[Jan Finster]

12 hours ago, 889 said:

I remember being taught that in 谢谢 for example, both are shortened a bit, the second more than the first, and the second starting lower than the first.

 

Isn't 谢谢 supposed to be 4th tone and 5th tone (!!?) (at least this is what Pleco and several other dictionaries I checked say). I learned the 5th tone that follows a fourth tone is at "1" (!?)

[889]

Some people say it that way, but I was taught 4-4. Maybe it depends on how thankful you are.

 

(And I was taught that a light tone maintains its usual value, just lighter.)

[Jan Finster]

15 minutes ago, 889 said:

(And I was taught that a light tone maintains its usual value, just lighter.)

 

Really? Interesting! This is what confuses me about Chinese tones. There are so many different views. Below is what I have learned about the 5th tone. And there is no implication of "maintains its usual value, just lighter" (?!) 

 

https://chinesefor.us/lessons/mandarin-chinese-neutral-tone-exercises/

[889]

"I learned the 5th tone that follows a fourth tone is at '1'."

 

That's what set me off. I've never heard that. Your chart shows it as "short" fourth tone, just touching the bottom for a sec, which is fine.

 

In any event, when it comes to fine points like these, sometimes book learning can just confuse you. Listen to a native speaker and mimic. If you can mimic right you've got it right.

[Tomsima]

Agree with 889, do some shadowing with a native speaker and get your own chart mapped out in your head rather than relying 100% on the guides you can find online. Each speaker has their own habits, and for finer points like this, save yourself confusion and work with a good teacher to learn their way of speaking

[roddy]

On the neutral tone, I looked out this old post. It matches the graph Jan posts above, although I'd query if you'd actually get the full 3rd tone contour when there's something after it. 

[Jan Finster]

On 11/18/2019 at 6:33 PM, roddy said:

although I'd query if you'd actually get the full 3rd tone contour when there's something after it. 

Good point. Surely, this is a mistake in the graph.

[Flickserve]

1 hour ago, Jan Finster said:

Surely, this is a mistake in the graph.

 

Just use it as a rough guide. 

 

One thing I learnt very early one with Chinese is reading out loud and sounding correct is very difficult. You don't have that 'feel' for the language. So I dropped that and increased my listening and shadowing of sentences.