A serious question: religion?

[elina]

I think there are many people from all over the world in this forum, who know both Eastern culture and Western culture, I’d like to ask some questions about religion.

My mother is a devotional Christian. When she was young in Indonesia, she received baptism. My father does not believe any religion, so do I by now. But sometimes I think human being is weak, puniness or something like that. For example, I prayed like what my mother told me before general anesthesia during a surgical operation two years ago. I think I will believe one religion in future.

There is a coincidence that the three new coming employees who are respectively interviewed by me all believe Buddhism, and they are all good and nice persons. One of them believes Buddhism less than 20 years, she tells me some Buddhism knowledge, and I think it is reasonable. One more thing: when I was very young, just a child before school age, I felt by myself that I ever lived as a human being in preexistence. Nobody taught me that thought. It is very strange and no reason that I have the idea in the childhood. Maybe it is a 缘分 / predestined relationship or 佛缘？Does anyone have the same feeling?

My mother and other people believing Christianity say that their health are getting better after they believe Christianity, even some diseases disappear. My colleagues and other people believing Buddhism can also bring forward such evidences. I know both of them are all honest persons. So I get confused, difficult to make a decision.

What do you think about religion? Thank you very much for any information in advance!

[gougou]

My mother and other people believing Christianity say that their health are getting better after they believe Christianity, even some diseases disappear. My colleagues and other people believing Buddhism can also bring forward such evidences. I know both of them are all honest persons. So I get confused, difficult to make a decision.

I don't think that you can judge a religion by its outcome. Whether those people get healthy or not is not the result of them believing in the right god, or right religion, but just of having found something that they can believe in.

As you said, the human being is weak, and for many people, having some higher instance to believe in releases a lot of positive energy. Religion itself cannot cure a disease or bring forth any wonders, it always takes people believing in it.

So try not to judge a religion like medicine , if you tried to believe in a religion that you are not comfortable with, you would certainly not experience the same as somebody who can follow it whole-heartedly.

[elina]

(Just now at about 10:00 am, I can not open this website, did anyone encounter this problem?)

Thank you for answering me, gougou! You are right:

So try not to judge a religion like medicine

But I’d like to say, people believe in religion, not only for being comfortable, or just believing in it, but also want to get something like “好处 / benefit”, I mean this kind of benefits contain many: from body to spirit, or even to get eternal of life.

Do you believe in any religion? Why do you believe?

[gougou]

I don't believe in any religion, guess I'm too rational a person for that (even though some very rational people have been very religious, too).

My family is catholic, so the first 10 or so years of my life, I was educated accordingly, but always saw it just as a duty, never could identify myself with it, not to mention believing in it. I've been looking around ever since, but it seems there is none I could believe in. I sympathize with Buddhism, because you don't necessarily have to believe in a God, which is great for a sceptic like me, but I get lost when it comes to reincarnation...

But I’d like to say, people believe in religion, not only for being comfortable, or just believing in it, but also want to get something like “好处 / benefit”

Definitely, that is the reason behind everything people do, isn't it? I suppose I wasn't exactly accurate there, what I meant was that you shouldn't follow other people's advice on that (as in "Hey, Christianity is great against headaches!"), it is not like a medicine somebody can prescribe you. What you should do is see which religion suits you the best, as this is the one that you are going to profit from the most.

If you feel attracted to Buddhism, why not do some reading, talk to some more people, find out if that's really for you?

(Just now at about 10:00 am, I can not open this website, did anyone encounter this problem?)

Yepp, same here.

[Song You Shen]

Religion is not something you can look for and find. How can we find a true god? What in our own life gives us the ability or authority to find God? Throughout history, many have claimed to have found a god, and yet, all they do is worship an inanimate object that were usually created by their own hands. What kind of god is that?

Religion should find us. Which one of these statement would you think is more powerful/impacting:

- I sought out God and found him/her/it.

- God sought me out and found me.

I am a Christian. I have been a Christian for 9 years now. I believe that there are "absolutes" in life. One of them is that God is God, and He is the only God. 耶稣是真神. I believe the Bible to be true and infalible. I believe the verse that says, "no one comes to the Father, unless Christ His Son draws them first." The bible says that all have fallen short of the glory, we all have problems (sin) that keep us from coming to God. The Bible also says that if you are either a friend, or an enemy of God (there is no middle-ground). This does not mean if you are not a Christian, God hates you. On the contrary, God loves with an everlasting love. How can a righteous and pure God have unholy hatred? The Bible says that God does not desire that any should perish (i.e. go to hell), but that all would come to the knowledge (of who He is). Jesus Christ came to the earth to seek and to save the lost. One of the reasons why Jesus Christ died was so that we could come into contact with God. Before Jesus came to the earth, men were limited to meeting with God through a "high-priest". But because of what Christ did (died for us), we are all able to come before God.

There are many reasons why I believe Budism and all other religions are false... A couple of the reasons are,

1) In Budism, the idea that through good works and a good life, after how many reincarnations, we eventually can become god's ourselves. I look at how wicked mankind is. Yes there are good people and bad people, but not even good people are perfect, no matter how long they live, or how many lives they go through. Perfection cannot be attained within ourselves. Take this as an example... you are in a class at school where you can take a quiz. The quiz is 10 points. You can take the quiz as many times as you want and the end score will be the average of all of your scores. Even if you score 9/10 points on your first time through the quiz, you will never be able to reach 100%, no matter how many times you take the quiz. Yes, you will get a higher and higher percentage, but you will never get a perfect 100%. This is the same way with Budism... if you aren't already 100% perfect, no matter how many times you work through it, you're still never going to make it to perfection and true enlightenment.

2) In Islam, god is too holy to approach. Why would you serve a god you can never interact with? There is a difference between faith, and blind faith. Islam is really only a religion for men too. There are no provisions for women, no hope for women. There is nothing advantageous for anyone unless you are a male. I personally know a man, Walid Shoebat, who used to be PLO terrorist (now a Christian). This arab man knows more about Islam than most Islamic believers. If you want to know more about islam, read his book... "Why I left Jihad.". Islam is a religion that is dominated by fear (look in the Koran the consequences for not being male, and for everyone that isn't from Ishmael's decent).

Obviously I singled out these two religions, because they are the 2nd and 3rd most common religions in the world. In contrast to Islam, one of the main reasons why I am a Christian, is because I can interact with God. He isn't just some diety that is somewhere in the Universe doing random things. Being a Christian means you accept Jesus into your life. If you do this, He is in your life, and you can interact with Him whenever.

There are a million other reasons for all of my arguments, but it's getting late here, so I'm going to stop now, if you want to know more, throw me an email sometime, iwebb22@yahoo.com. I hope this sheds some light for you.

Youshen

[skylee]

In Budism, the idea that through good works and a good life, after how many reincarnations, we eventually can become god's ourselves.

I know very little about buddhism, or any other religions really, but this does not seem correct.

[Outofin]

From my very limited knowledge about Buddhism, I think the teaching is that everyone could be God, it’s not a goal though. Buddhism stresses on balance, action and reaction, cause and consequence. Everyone got what (s)he deserved. I don’t believe in any religion. But this part sounds okay to me. No Heaven, Only Hell. I don't think either heaven or hell exists. But above science, art and religion, there’s philosophy. So hell is imaginable and technically implementable. But heaven, doesnt exist on philosophy level. It's not because we can't build heaven, but because eternal and ultimate happyness neither exists nor desirable. The world, physical or spiritual, can’t resolve contradiction. The Buddhist’s view is that after you die, you enter the cycle of life. The "Heaven" is really life itself. If you’ve done too many bad things, you probably will stay in hell for a while.

[elina]

Many thanks to those who gave answers!

If you feel attracted to Buddhism, why not do some reading, talk to some more people, find out if that's really for you?

Thank you for your advice, gougou. When I have more time, I will read some relevant books in future. And now I’m talking, especially talking with you people with the background of knowing both eastern and western culture, through these, I hope to make things clearer.

Youshen, I agree with your statement: Religion should find us. Also for this reason, I think this may be not just a coincidence:

There is a coincidence that the three new coming employees who are respectively interviewed by me all believe Buddhism, and they are all good and nice persons. One of them believes Buddhism less than 20 years, she tells me some Buddhism knowledge, and I think it is reasonable. One more thing: when I was very young, just a child before school age, I felt by myself that I ever lived as a human being in preexistence. Nobody taught me that thought. It is very strange and no reason that I have the idea in the childhood.

Today I went to the first painting course, and the teacher is also an 8-year Buddhist. Maybe it indicates I am a 有缘之人 to Buddhism, I’m not sure.

Concerning your example of taking a quiz at school, how about always taking the same quiz all the time? I think if I do the same quiz every time, I can get a score of 10 points each time. Yes, even good people are not perfect, but through so many lives of 修身养性、弃恶从善 / cultivating one's morality, people can be nearly perfect. This time, Buddha will come to meet this person and take he/she 脱离六道轮回 / break away from reincarnations. This is what I know about Buddhism.

Outofin says: heaven doesn’t exist, because eternal and ultimate happiness neither exists nor desirable.

Why? Who knows?

For my limited English level, I can not understand this sentence:

The world, physical or spiritual, can’t resolve contradiction

[Outofin]

I don’t have a definition and descriptions of heaven. The very basic feature of heaven is that, it’s good for me but it’s not here. If that’s the case, I don’t see a good reason that it can not exist. But honestly, it doesn’t sound attractive and I have to bear the possibility that it doesn’t exist.

According to many people, the heaven becomes a concept of extremity, which is what I think doesn’t exist. Why it becomes this way is that, if it’s not a concept of extremity, it would appear less attractive and become simply “a better world”.

Our poor ancestors imagined that in heaven, milk flows in river and something like this. Let’s not talk about the funny scene. Many say, people will live happily there. I failed to imagine how it would be. I usually start to imagine a scenario and stop in a minute. Say, most people would like live young forever. To me, a heaven full of ever young people is horrible. Say, Beethoven’s music is great, but in heaven no one will be able to produce such music because no one lives such a life. Is it pitiful? I doubt if heaven has John Lennon and Curt Cobain, let alone Beethoven. I can give you unlimited examples like these.

Some say, you will change in heaven, you would pity Beethoven’s music because God's music is uncomparable. That’s another part I dislike. Why should I? Is being myself wrong? Some say, heaven is beyond your understanding and imagination. If that’s the case, there’s really nothing to talk about. I don't believe what I don't understand. Or, I don't believe what I don't believe.

How do you describe heaven?

[Song You Shen]

How do you describe heaven?

Wow, that's a very limited view of heaven Outofin. You look at heaven, as if it were the exact same as this world. How could that be heaven? My views of heaven, though limited, go something like this: finally the wall between man and God is removed, and we are now able to come into a complete relationship with God. It is a place where everything and everyone is perfected… where limit and restriction of time/space/physics are removed and the unimaginable is possible. Since there are no longer restrictions that we encounter here in this world, things will always be changing, and always be renewed. It is a place where something that is perfect cannot be made imperfect. Contrary to eastern philosophy, there does not need to be an equilibrium between evil and good. Evil will be thrown away with, and only good will remain.

You gave the example of Beethoven and his music. How can you tell how good something sounds? You measure it up against something else (of greater or lesser value). I don’t play the piano. I know that I have no piano skills. If I played a song for you, and asked you to compare myself with Beethoven, what would you say? In honesty, you would say that Beethoven was better because he had more knowledge of how to play, and his music sounded better. Beethoven, as brilliant as he was, had a limited (or incomplete) understanding of music. Now apply this in heaven, God is infinite and is all-knowing. That means he understands everything about music. Wouldn’t you say that his music is infinitely better (higher quality) than Beethoven’s? If you said that Beethoven’s was better than mine, then you must admit that God’s music is better than Beethoven’s. What makes people want to listen to Beethoven play, more than listening to me play? Compared to his music, my music is so bad that people around the world would never want to listen to it. God’s music is infinitely greater than Beethoven’s music, and therefore would completely eclipse Beethoven’s skills. This is not to say that God’s music is music that only God produce’s, rather it is all music that comes from Heaven. Who is to say that we won’t be able to create such beautiful music if you get there?

Some people believe that you change when you go to heaven. This would be correct. Since heaven is a place of perfection, that means you cannot bring evil into heaven. If you can’t bring evil into heaven, then all the areas in your life that aren’t perfected yet will be removed. How do you know how or what you will be thinking or experiencing when you have gone through such a radical change? You obviously won’t be the exact same person you are now, so you probably won’t think exactly the same way you do now.

I don't believe what I don't understand.

Um, do you understand the intricacies of the laws of physics, or quantitative math? There is an infinite amount of knowledge, and it's currently not possible to understand it all. Does this mean you do not believe it is correct? The human mind is extremely limited. You cannot believe in heaven if you do not believe in a god and/or religion. They are connected. Believing is called faith. Faith is believing something that can’t always be explained, seen, or understood.

Youshen

[gougou]

If you said that Beethoven’s was better than mine, then you must admit that God’s music is better than Beethoven’s.

Well, until hearing God's first recording, I suppose I'd stick with Beethoven...

Sorry, not meaning to be blasphemous here (Question: can an atheist even be blasphemous?) What I mean is that I prefer wordly pleasures over something that might or might not come in the future. A bird in the hand...

In fact, that is one of the things that I most dislike about all of the big religions, that all of them limit, no, rather: condemn the worldly pleasures.

I think if there was a God, who loved you very much and who had created life, why wouldn't he want you to enjoy it?

[atitarev]

I am baptised as Christian orthodox but I am an atheist.

There are good things about religion but without aiming to cause someone's outrage, IMHO, religion is one of the reasons for our current intolerance and hostilities in the world. I believe in science and humanity, not in God.

[HashiriKata]

What do you think of a religion that advocates "say nothing!" ?

(I'm a believer of it )

[Quest]

If everything is perfect and achieved, what's the point of living forever? When that actually happens, how different would one be from this smiley:

Hey he lives forever, he feels no pain no anger no envy and he's happy.

If there's a god, he probably intended the world the way it is now.

Who created evil?

[HashiriKata]

"In Budism' date=' the idea that through good works and a good life, after how many reincarnations, we eventually can become god's ourselves." [/i']

I know very little about buddhism, or any other religions really, but this does not seem correct.

You're correct, skylee. If I remember vaguely correctly, certain strands of Buddhism teach that we're all "Buddhas" (= the enlightened ones), just that we yet need to discover ourselves. I think this is very philosophically empowering/ enlightening.

[nipponman]

If everything is perfect and achieved, what's the point of living forever? When that actually happens, how different would one be from this smiley:

Hey he lives forever, he feels no pain no anger no envy and he's happy.

If there's a god, he probably intended the world the way it is now.

Who created evil?

I think that you say the last statement Quest maybe because you (like most of us) are more fortunate than others. Why would God allow suffering amidst the beings he created and loves? The only reason is because there is war in heaven and we are caught in the middle by choice.

As for living for ever, you haven't done so yet (at least, I hope ) so how can you compare the two?

nipponman

[Outofin]

From Quest’s point, I’d like to say more about my points on art and contradiction. It’s not a matter whose music is better, God or Beethoven. Art itself is balanced point between the opposites. In the case of Beethoven, only he had the tragic and heroic life, could he make the great music. An infinitely better music can’t lower his music a bit.

If without sadness, bitterness and ect, happiness won’t exist. Think how tired and relaxed you feel after a basketball game. Like Quest said, absolute happiness is a symptom of idiot.

Beauty is a balanced point between light and shadow, happiness and sadness, grandness and meanness, victory and failure. Beauty comes from the efforts to seek the balance, while the effort inevitably leads to a possibility of corruption. This is both a paean and a lament of humanity.

The only reasonable guess is that humanity doesn't exist in heaven. In that case, I don’t care if I go to heaven, because I’m entirely certain that the one who enters the heaven is no longer me.

The only reason is because there is war in heaven and we are caught in the middle by choice.

From which religion? If God is omnipotent, the war must be fun game for him/her/it.

[nipponman]

First of all, sadness, suffering, etc all come from sin. Sin is the turning to the right or to the left of God's law. God's law is for man's own good. If you believe on Jesus, and follow the Law of God (keep the sabbath, abstain from eating foul beasts, don't commit murder, don't covet another man's wife, etc.) you can be saved. Why would you want to be saved? For the same reason you don't drive your car into a wall every morning, for the same reason you when you see a bus you don't jump in front of it. You want to be saved so you can live, because I like living. Living is fun. Living is something I want to experience for a long, long time. And if you would rather burn in hell for the sins you unknowningly commit against God, then you don't want what is best for yourself.

[elina]

Every time when I write something about this post, I feel a kind of headache, one reason is because of my limited English level, the other reason is that I think it is real such a topic which is difficult to express clearly.

Contrary to eastern philosophy, there does not need to be an equilibrium between evil and good. Evil will be thrown away with, and only good will remain

In Buddhism, heaven is called 西方极乐世界, there ALSO “evil will be thrown away, and only good will remain, It is a place where everything and everyone are perfect”. I heard from my Buddhist friend (I myself did not check it in books): after a person 往生西方、脱离六道轮回 / break away from reincarnations, he/she will attend lectures and later become a Buddha himself/herself, then he/she can go to 四方八世 / all directions (here 四 and 八 do not exactly indicate four and eight, the meaning expresses all over the world, all over the universe) , and 普渡众生 / release people from sufferings.

Buddhism stresses on balance, action and reaction, cause and consequence. Everyone got what (s)he deserved.

It’s right. I think that’s it in Buddhism. This balance indicates, for example, if you help people, people also help you; if you do evil to people, you will get it returned to you, even if this is not happened in this life, it will happen in future life…

I don't believe what I don't understand

I agree with Youshen. In ancient time, people can not understand that there is atmosphere around us which can not be seen by people’ eyes, but the atmosphere is really there no matter one can see it or not. An old Chinese saying: 耳听为虚，眼见为实 / hearing from others may be false, seeing by oneself is true. But sometimes I think眼见为虚 (maybe illusion, hallucination)，and some other time眼不见也为实。

IMHO, religion is one of the reasons for our current intolerance and hostilities in the world.

I think of it sometimes, but not get the answer yet.

I think nipponman’s statement can answer Outofin’s:

If without sadness, bitterness and ect, happiness won’t exist. Think how tired and relaxed you feel after a basketball game. Like Quest said, absolute happiness is a symptom of idiot

As for living for ever, you haven't done so yet, so how can you compare the two?

In the case of Beethoven, only he had the tragic and heroic life, could he make the great music. An infinitely better music can’t lower his music a bit.

I think if there is a super power, let’s say God, the God is omniscient, so he understands tragic and heroic life as well as other all kinds of lives, as if he himself spends this kind of life in deed, so he can make the great music like Beethoven or anyone else. It is imaginable and possible, isn’t it?

[gougou]

And if you would rather burn in hell for the sins you unknowningly commit against God

So a merciful God will punish you for something you didn't know was wrong?

It is imaginable and possible, isn’t it?

Imaginable? Sure! The trouble starts when trying to believe...