A serious question: religion?

[Song You Shen]

So a merciful God will punish you for something you didn't know was wrong?

Ah, yes, this is a common argument. The thing is... you've heard in this post, that there are things in your life (by default) that need to be changed. You now have this understanding, whether you choose to believe it, is up to you. The thing is, God is full of mercy, and the verses I quoted earlier, "He [Jesus] seeks to save the lost..." and "no one comes to the father, lest I [Jesus] draw him..." show that Jesus is still alive and is actively seeking people. God meets us where we're at. Sometimes that means that you will hear about Jesus Christ and your sin here on a message board, sometimes it means you will hear about Jesus Christ when you're talking with a friend, or maybe you'll hear about it if you go to visit a Church. God is God, and He often just goes and meets with people one on one.

In fact, that is one of the things that I most dislike about all of the big religions, that all of them limit, no, rather: condemn the worldly pleasures.

Ok, so what do you consider "Wordly Pleasures?" Drinking? Drugs? Pornography? Sex before marriage? Sex with different people? Swearing? Other than these things, I can do it if I want. There are many in this world that are not religious that hold the same values. So I do not see where you're argument is coming from? You say that if God created this world, why shouldn't we enjoy it? Well, each of those things that I mentioned above have minor to severe possible consequences. I am able to fully enjoy life without the threat of consequences like this... wouldn't you say that because of the less amount of threats, I would be living a "more" enjoyable life?

[Song You Shen]

If everything is perfect and achieved, what's the point of living forever?

Who created evil?

Two good questions. The answer to the first question is two-fold:

1) The end goal is not perfection. You also have to see that perfect is not a "static" word, rather it is always changing.

2) We here on earth, often our lives consumed about ourselves, our own well-being.... it's all about us, us, us. Yes, there are moments when we are group or "others" oriented, but ultimately we are focused on ourselves. This will not be the case in heaven.

If we are always the same (perfect), but everything around us is always changing, how could that ever get boring? We get to experience an infinite amount of options and opportunities without the threat of anything going wrong. A constant exploration with new discoveries. Sound fun to me.

The answer to your second question is quite simple actually. God did. God created evil. But you have to ask, why? Ultimately, it really doesn't matter, why should God have to explain Himself, or His actions. He operates and such a higher level that we could never comprehend His full intentions. God is omnipotent and therefore has a complete view of everything, at any moment in time. Yet, all we know is an extremely small part of life, compared to God. However, God still shows us why He created evil. He wanted to give man a choice. Man has a will, and God gave man a will to choose. But, if God was the only option, how could man choose? Having a choice means that there must be 2 different options. God allowed evil to exist so that man would be able to have a choice. It was actually described to me like this... choice shows a motivation of love. In life we choose what we like better (in a majority of circumstances). God created man for relationship with Himself... in any relationship, there is a desire to be shown love... God created man so that He could choose, and say, I love you God, more than I love evil.

Hope that helps explain a little...

Youshen

[Outofin]

In ancient time, people can not understand that there is atmosphere around us which can not be seen by people’ eyes, but the atmosphere is really there no matter one can see it or not. An old Chinese saying: 耳听为虚，眼见为实 / hearing from others may be false, seeing by oneself is true. But sometimes I think眼见为虚 (maybe illusion, hallucination)，and some other time眼不见也为实。

Elina, you're absolutely right. I think skepticism is a virtue. To challenge what people are used to is a virtue. Because we're all bound to our time, phisycal and psychological limits, we could be wrong. On my way to work, there is a gas station. I can see it, I can hear it, I can touch it, and I can get gas from it. I tell others that there's a gas station, others agree with me. If I'm in doubt, I can go to check whether it's there right now. But could I be wrong? Yes, I could. Maybe it's just an illusion.

You have sensed your god. However, is there a slight, tiny possibility that you are wrong? Although you dont think you're not wrong, but is it just POSSIBLE that you COULD be wrong, just like I said I could be wrong? If you say no, I'll stop here and no further question. If you think you could be wrong, I'll continue my reasoning.

[gougou]

I can see it, I can hear it, I can touch it, and I can get gas from it. (...) Maybe it's just an illusion.

Does it matter? Do you need gas, or the revelation whether or not there is a real gas station?

I faintly recall the movie eXistenZ playing around with that topic... it was a bit shallow, though.

wouldn't you say that because of the less amount of threats, I would be living a "more" enjoyable life?

That's up for discussion, some like to say: "No risk, no fun." Not necessarily my point of view, though, I would consider myself somewhere between the two extremes.

I agree that many of these religious "laws" come from trying to avoid threats. But I think that, especially in the time we're living in, education is better than prohibition. I consider these laws quite outdated.

If everything is perfect and achieved, what's the point of living forever?

If I may add to this, if everything is perfect eternally, can you still appreciate it? Or do we experience something as nice because of the contrast to something bad? Hmm, is that understandable?

What I mean is, if you have never been hungry, do you know the greatness of having food as much as you want?

[elina]

I really like all these arguments, do you name this as brainstorm in English?

Outofin, you know, actually my question is: Is there a super power in deed? If yes, will I believe in Buddhism or Christian? Now I am a skeptic, and also think: “skepticism is a virtue”, but I do not want to stop here doubting, I want to push forward. I think that it is not the skepticism itself to make sense, it is exploring and search to make sense after skepticism. So I’d like to make arguments to get the final answer. 公平地说 / In all conscience，everyone here may be wrong, or maybe right, me too. So come on, please, Outofin, bring forward your further reasons. 理不辩不明，right?

By the way, I said: “sometimes I think 眼见为虚 (maybe illusion, hallucination)”, for example, a 海市蜃楼 / mirage, but sure the gas station on your way to work is not a illusion.

If we are always the same (perfect), but everything around us is always changing, how could that ever get boring?

I think it is reasonable. It answers a question which puzzles me

[nipponman]

So a merciful God will punish you for something you didn't know was wrong?

You're finding out its wrong right now. God is very subtle he is in the still small voice. There probably wont be much fanfare when you here about what you do wrong. I think the problem is people don't like to hear when they are doing wrong.

I agree that many of these religious "laws" come from trying to avoid threats. But I think that, especially in the time we're living in, education is better than prohibition. I consider these laws quite outdated.

Here's how up to date the Bible is, it says (paraphrasing), only a fool says there is no God.

You have sensed your god. However, is there a slight, tiny possibility that you are wrong? Although you dont think you're not wrong, but is it just POSSIBLE that you COULD be wrong, just like I said I could be wrong? If you say no, I'll stop here and no further question. If you think you could be wrong, I'll continue my reasoning.

I don't want you to quit posting here Ooutofin. I won's say there is no possibility I could be wrong, because it is not about my righteousness, but God's. I am not right, I am only choosing the right side. And this side that I am on, cannot be wrong. There is too much evidence in the Bible (the Bible itself) for me to doubt the existence of an almighty God and his love for humanity. And frankly there is no other explanation for how human beings got here if you're into science like me. Evolution, big bang theory, all of these are unfounded theories to describe the beginning at a time when no humans existed!

What started the big bang? What started whatever started it? There is no answer apart from God.

nipponman

[beirne]

I really like all these arguments, do you name this as brainstorm in English?

It isn't exactly brainstorming. It is more on the lines of discussion or argument. Brainstorming is when you have a group working on a problem and as a first step toward finding a solution they mention ideas, whether they are good ones or not. Most ideas will later be discarded but the goal is to get people thinking creatively.

Here is how brainstorming might work in this situation. The question is "What is behind the reality that we see?" A brainstorming session might come up with the following ideas:

1. A three-part god in union
   
2. An impersonal force to which we will all return
   
3. A single all-powerful god
   
4. a variety of gods
   
5. Nothing. What we see is all that there is.
   
6. etc.
   

This posting is probably a longer answer than you expected, but the idea of brainstorming here got me going.

[elina]

Thank you for explaining brainstorming, beirne! For my limited English level, I can not understand the following two:

1. A three-part god in union (三位一体的真神？)

2. An impersonal force to which we will all return

This posting is probably a longer answer than you expected

No, when I post this topic, I' d like this post can be long enough to make things clearly.

[Outofin]

Elina, I’m surprised that you agreed with me. I thought that was going to my last post. I’m honored for you give me the chance to talk equally. Some don’t. They say I’m wrong but say they themselves can not be wrong. I often lose words in that situation.

If we draw the spectrum of faith in god, and 100 presents those who believe in god with no single argument. I’m roughly at 10, and you could be at 90. That doesn’t matter. What matters is that you’re in the middle. And trust me, the distance between you and me is much closer than from you to 100 and I to 0, because we have skepticism. Even before the millisecond that god saves you from reincarnations and grant you fully understanding of ultimate truth, I hope you could keep the skepticism. We are human and we could be wrong, skepticism is the last defense of our consciousness. The journey to truth is no easy.

In this world, you’ll hear many various sounds. Some are from others, some are from your senses. You accept some, reject some and leave the rest. It’s interesting to study the pattern and learn from it for our own use. See this example

Sound: follow me and I’ll give you $10.

Reaction: Not interested.

Sound: follow me and I’ll give you $10 billions.

Reaction: Don’t make me laugh.

Sound: follow me and I’ll give eternal life and happiness and whatever you want, or otherwise you'll be burnt in hell.

Reaction:

How do you see the relation between the inputs and outputs? From what I see, the reward is increasing, and once it breaks a certain threshold, the person starts to believe. Because, (s)he can not bear the possibility of the sound is saying right.

But evidently, everyone’s threshold is different. I have some friends who believed in god in a second when they were told they would be burnt in hell if they didn’t. Some start to believe at $10 bi and they’re those who buy lotteries. I’m among those who don’t roll eyes even when being told about heaven and hell. So my threshold is higher, or if you prefer, my 悟性 is lower.

The example is simple and doesn’t hurt. But in reality, you will hear much more complicated sounds. It’s not only about whether you believe it. It’s about which one you choose to believe, and how you’re ready to sacrifice something (perhaps precious) for your belief. You don’t expect to achieve huge rewards for doing nothing, do you? You don't think faith is an easy thing, do you? Some do. For those I'll stop here. But you've said you were asking a "serious question". So let's see what the sounds are:

“Give me $10, I’ll give you the CD that you could take home to enjoy.”

“Spend 7 hours per week learning from me, and after 10 years you’ll be able to play piano professionally.”

“Spend 7 hours per week learning from me, and after 10 years you’ll be able to play piano professionally. But I can’t guarantee you.”

“Spend 1 hours per week learning from me, and after 6 months you’ll be able to play piano professionally.”

“Go to college and learn mechanics. You probably will be able to make the world better by making engine more efficient.”

“You’ll achieve eternal life and ultimate truth if you follow God A’s way.”

“You’ll achieve eternal life and ultimate truth if you follow God B’s way.”

“You’ll achieve eternal life and ultimate truth if you follow God C’s way.”

I’ve already written too long and will stop here. Does it make sense so far? Am I describing the world in a right way? If we agree upon this, I’ll continue to share with you how I make decisions in the noisy world. If we don't, we can stay in this step and make further discussions.

[nipponman]

Skepticism is good, but only for one's own ideas. You take the idea of skepticism and give it to God's word, this is not good. I didn't create the Bible, so even if you are skeptical about my point of view, read the bible for yourself, it will tell you everything I have told you here. Not because I am right, but because I have already taken my own advice what I say to you is from the bible. God wants you to be happy, so he gives you rules that if you break will result in your unhappiness. Example: Mother "Don't put your fingers in your mouth son." Son's mind: "I'll do it anyway, mom's rules are outdated and foolish, I know what I'm doing!"

2 things could happen here, the son put his fingers in his mouth unnoticed and instead of recieving punishment from mom, he may get a disease from somewhere he touched. Or, his mom could catch, punish him and then he will follow her will. When he grows up, he may reflect on his childhood saying, "My mother was right! I am glad I listened to her!" Now that the boy is grown, he respects and acknowledges his mothers wisdom. We as humans are like that child, constantly warring against the things that are good for us. This is not the way to live a happy life. If you want a happy life, you should listen to the one who created you, not because you fear hell, but because you want what is best for you. Maybe this is clear, maybe not, but think about it and your skepticism may be alieved. The point of skepticism isn't so you can stay forever doubtful, but so you may make the right choice about what to believe.

[beirne]

Thank you for explaining brainstorming, beirne! For my limited English level, I can not understand the following two:

1. A three-part god in union (三位一体的真神？)

2. An impersonal force to which we will all return

Since I was brainstorming I was trying to work from a clean slate, although I was of course basing my answers on existing religions. The three-part god in union was my way of saying Christianity. I could have also said the Trinity, but that doesn't mean much without a lot of context. The impersonal force is my understanding of Buddhism and to some degree Hinduism but I could be wrong here.

[gougou]

Here's how up to date the Bible is, it says (paraphrasing), only a fool says there is no God

Nipponman, I admire your faith in the bible.

But I, and I believe others here as well, can't follow you there. To me, this seems like quoting the Nike webpage to proof which sporting shoe is the best...

[Outofin]

Nipponman, I’d rather stay in the very first step but not jump to the conclusion. You don’t mind if I spend some time or even my whole life to find the truth and meanings of my life, do you? Sorry, this makes the discussion sound onerous, but there’s no really easy way. But the long long journey could happen in the forum right here, or in other places in our lives, or everywhere. At the end of my life, I’ll still keep skepticism. It could be less, hopefully, but I can't completely give it away, because, I’m not save yet and I could be wrong. Even for you, you have to admit that you’re not saved yet. You believe bible is ultimate truth, but reading bible is your way to approach the truth, and you can’t fully comprehend the truth yet. Do you agree? In this case, I think everyone here should keep skepticism even if we finally agree upon everything and find the way to ultimate truth. Otherwise, I can't find a way to do some meaningful discussions.

[Song You Shen]

Skepticism is good, but only for one's own ideas. You take the idea of skepticism and give it to God's word, this is not good.

Outofin, Nippoman is correct in his statement here. Skepticism is part of human nature, because we are so inquisitive. However, while questioning one's self is quite normal, questioning one's own faith is like giving God a slap in the face. If we are skeptical of God, we are basically saying, "I think you're real, but I'm not going to give my whole heart to you." That is like saying to your wife, "I love you, but I don't love you with my whole heart. There might be a chance that I will go for another woman later on." You cannot live with Skepticism for your entire life... otherwise you will always be indecisive and you'll never make concrete decisions.

There cannot always be skepticism. If I told you that 1+2=3, could there be any skepticism in that? No, you know that 3 is the answer, it always has been, it always will be. Why do you believe it? Because it is truth. In the same way, believing in the Bible and believing that Jesus Christ is the only true God is a truth that has been passed down through the ages that has found it's way into our hearts. The fact that very clear, vivid prophecies in the bible are still being fulfilled today is a continual sign of the Bible's truth, validating that God is alive and active in our world.

Youshen

[Outofin]

You Shen, I think I can understand how you see the world. But even the basic and simple facts to you could be strange to me. Please understand that you’re not asking me for a small change. For now, I stand on what I’ve said in the thread.

Actually after I replied to nipponman, I myself was scared by the amount of thinking ahead. It’s really not an appropriate time for me to re-examine every bit of my mind at the time, because I’ll have some big personal events in the next few weeks. I won’t be able to writing long posts on this matter like I did.

I’ll find my answer, hopefully. But no rush.

[Song You Shen]

Outofin, I hope that my comments did not feel like a personal attack. I did not mean them that way. I am only trying to continue the discussion/argument. I wish you luck, and hope for the best in the decisions you will be making the in the near future.

Youshen

[eddiewouldgo]

There cannot always be skepticism. If I told you that 1+2=3, could there be any skepticism in that? No, you know that 3 is the answer, it always has been, it always will be. Why do you believe it? Because it is truth. In the same way, believing in the Bible and believing that Jesus Christ is the only true God is a truth that has been passed down through the ages that has found it's way into our hearts.

The reason I believe 1+2=3 is true is not because you tell me so. I can prove this to be true myself at every moment. But When you tell me Jesus Christ is the true God, which I can't prove to myself nor you can demonstrate it to me. Beside your God, there'are 1000s other gods are passed down through ages that also found their way to other people's heart, and that's a fact too.

The fact that very clear, vivid prophecies in the bible are still being fulfilled today is a continual sign of the Bible's truth, validating that God is alive and active in our world.

Yeah, for every of your so called fact, I can find a counter example that invalidating God is active， and he does not exist in our world. But you can never disprove 1+2=3, because that's science. Miracles/Angels can't be repeated. But you'll tell me, oh God must have meant it to happend or not happen. If this is the case I rather reply on my good old 1+2=3, cause it would never fail us, and I don't have to worship it and go to church for it.

I mean I don't dislike religion. But I dislike people that claim what they believe is the one and only, the trueth, the only so called true God. And this is what cause a lot of trouble today in the world. Religion is something that unites us yet devides us deeply. What's true is you are born, you live and you die. No one has ever come back from the the heaven and tell us how woderful it's to live there. You know why after 1000s years us human are still not saved by all the religions in the world. If your so called heaven does exist, after 1000s years, someone must have been awakened in heaven and realise wait, we can never escape from this heaven, we can never do wrong, then a revealation came upon him that there's a place called Earth. If you believe in this revealation you can break away from this ever changing heaven and come to Earth, here you can have a chance to do good and wrong, you can love/hate/laugh/cry and strange things called Science/Islam/Buhdism/Sex/Internet/alchohol and a whole bunch of other good and bad things exist. But once you are there you are on your own for better or worse. Woudn't you be happier on earth then this constantly changing(which also means never changing) heaven.

[nipponman]

Yeah, for every of your so called fact, I can find a counter example that invalidating God is active，

You say you can, but I am skeptical

hopefully, but I can't completely give it away, because, I’m not save yet and I could be wrong. Even for you, you have to admit that you’re not saved yet. You believe bible is ultimate truth, but reading bible is your way to approach the truth, and you can’t fully comprehend the truth yet. Do you agree? In this case, I think everyone here should keep skepticism even if we finally agree upon everything and find the way to ultimate truth. Otherwise, I can't find a way to do some meaningful discussions.

You see Ooutofin, this is the basis of faith! To say you believe without proof! Jesus says (paraphrasing) blessed are those that do not see and do believe...

Your belief is what God wants. There is war in heaven, basically there are two ways to do things, God's way, and Satan's way. But when you hear of this, you don't hear it like that because no one wants to side with evil (most everyone doesn't anyway). So it comes to you in a way you don't expect. Do you change your life to make it the best possible?

This is how you decide between the 1000 of other "gods" as you put it, and the one and only true God. Ask yourself, "does following this religion give me the most happiness in life I can possibly have?" Because God wants you to be happy, the problem is we don't want ourvselves to be happy. We choose to do the wrong things, they may make us happy now, but say for instance, a smoker is probably never happy when they get emphasimia (can't spell that word:-? ). But continue your search Outofin, the right answer is always there, you just have to see it.

[eddiewouldgo]

You see Ooutofin, this is the basis of faith! To say you believe without proof!

In other words, that's called blind faith. I Hope they don't tell you one day you can fly and you'll just jump off the building. As you know some people will really do it. Like the The Waco Massacre.

Because God wants you to be happy, the problem is we don't want ourvselves to be happy.

Wait, who does not want himself/herself to be happy, raise their hands, lol.

We choose to do the wrong things, they may make us happy now, but say for instance, a smoker is probably never happy when they get emphasimia (can't spell that word ).

Only if I'm God-like, know it all, than I guess I won't choose to do wrong things.

But continue your search Outofin, the right answer is always there, you just have to see it.

I'm sure the trueth is out there, but you must be open-minded, do a good deed a day, and you are already much happier witout even going to heaven. And helping each others and being a good person does not require having believe in a true God. You can do it without him/her/it.

[gougou]

But I dislike people that claim what they believe is the one and only, the trueth, the only so called true God.

I absolutely agree. I find that missionaries are little different from soldiers in some aspects.

And I once read an interesting statement, commenting on the difference between Western and Eastern religions: The credo of Western religions is: there is one truth, we've got it. The credo of Eastern religions is: there is one truth, everybody's looking for it.

While certainly somewhat over the top, I could quite agree...

And helping each others and being a good person does not require having believe in a true God. You can do it without him/her/it.

Again, agree. Back when I was still going to church, one of the songs that I liked best went somewhat like this: "The Lord is gonna come. Don't think he's going to ask you how often you said Oh Lord, Oh Lord. But he is going to ask you, where are the children that you played, sang and laughed with, that you took care of when they were sick"

I think it is sad that most religions (I don't dare to say all, but I don't know of any exceptions) hoard treasures and precious relics while people are starving in other parts of the world. Somehow doesn't quite fit with all the talking of compassion, I think...