A serious question: religion?

[nipponman]

Peru, Congo, Angola and Burundi are Christian nations

Japan is Buddhist

How does that fit in with your theory?

There are always exceptions to the rule. What kind of christian? Some forms are higher than others, (I don't want to be offensive, it is just how I see it from the Bible) Catholic is the lowest form of Christianity. Basically, you just check to see which religion comes closest to the Bible. Catholicism is less then protestantism because they don't follow the bible by their own admission. Confession, the statues and icons, praying to Mary, all are directly antithetical to biblical teaching.

Nipponman

[roddy]

There are always exceptions to the rule

Not if your rule is any good. There's yet to be an exception to gravity, for example.

[Battosai]

Long Zhiren said:

Peru, Congo, Angola, Burundi, etc are "Christian nations?" I have to challenge this concept of a "Christian nation." I believe it is an oxymoron if not a complete, but popular misnomer. It is an oversimplification that flirts with bigotry.

You are correct , I was using terms from Nipponman's theory. Please see my revised post (#119) .The Edit function is indeed glorious.

elina said:

Battosai, from your explanation on 净宗 and 禅宗, I think maybe we can call 净宗 a religion, but禅宗, to me, it seems like a kind of philosophy, or, a kind of thinking method.

My explanation was incomplete. Zen does have temples, rituals, hierarchy and superstitions. It is possible that Pure Land Buddhism has a deep philosophy – I’m not aware of one but as I said I am not an expert.

I admit that Zen is my personal favourite and so I tend to portrait it in a positive light….

elina said :

Do you mean？:

举例来说：如果你正经历着痛苦，这是痛苦的；如果你正经历着幸福，但你也要明白，幸福终将过去，这又是另一种意义上的痛苦。

Exactly

elina said:

I think maybe there is no that way, like: which religion is right or which religion is wrong. But there is a religion which is suitable to a person.

You are right. I would say that even within every religion (especially the big ones) you can find various sects and diverse doctrines that cater to different needs and different types of people. Though Pat Robertson and Meister Eckhart are both classified under ‘Christianity’ they inspire different kinds of people. The same with Buddhism ,one person benefits from Tantric Tibetan Buddhism ,another prefers the Thai Forest tradition yet another prefers to cultivate mindfulness on his own (/her own).

This is if religion is taken as a personal thing (which is debatable)

[elina]

This happens for the "house" churches and officially discouraged groups like Falun Gong. I believe it to be an official policy based on the negative experiences from the Taiping/Boxer Rebellions where "house churches" got out of control. It's sad to see people suffer. Yet' date=' it is encouraging to have a the government proactive in upholding law, order and good for the common people. One could always wish for further control of corruptions!

And back to your message (#1) regarding physical, emotional, mental health associated with Christianity like your beloved mom, spiritual peace has lots of dividends. That's not to be confused with the peace (no war) that the world perceives. Worldly death, destruction and duress are not unfamiliar to Christians. That's not so say that they actively seek those stresses either. They're not to escape them like ascetics would [although Catholic monks would argue this last thought'].

Long Zhiren, you know, I’m a Beijing native. English is my second language, is not very good. I can understand your first paragraph, and I agree with you to some extent. But I try to understand your second paragraph, I fail. I really could not understand it. Could you please say it in an easier way in English again? TIA!

Battosai, from my colleague Buddhist, I feel Buddhism emphasizes 不执著bu4 zhi2 zhuo2 / do not excessively persist，一切随缘，and I also like the saying and think it is reasonable: 看破kan4 po4，放下fang4 xia4，自在zi4 zai4，随缘sui2 yuan2. But sometimes I think it is maybe a kind of negative. There are two sentences which I also think reasonable:

有志者事竟成 / where there is a will there is a way

成功者都是偏执狂 / a successful person must be a monomania (I remember maybe it is said by the CEO of Dell)

But the two sentences seem to be contrary to the Buddhism’s saying, what do you think of it?

Battosai, still a joking question for you: my colleague Buddhist seems to be 定力非常好，and hardly get angry. Are you this kind of person? If yes, is it educated by Buddhism theory?

[Battosai]

成功者都是偏执狂 / a successful person must be a monomania (I remember maybe it is said by the CEO of Dell)

Monomania is a term in psychology, it's a disease of the mind where one is constantly obsessed with an idea (in this case the idea of success). From a Buddhist point of view such a person is not considered a success even if he/she made a lot of money or achieved high status in society.

I would suggest firstly defining what does ‘success’ mean. If we take the common definition of success which is something like lots of money/ high status, then I would have to disagree with this saying. Not all successful people are suffering from a mental disorder.

I believe what this saying is really trying to convey is that successful people are very dedicated and concentrate their mind exclusively on achieving their goals. From a Buddhist point of view I would say that if one aims at achieving enlightenment (the highest form of success) then dedication is a must. Again, I would suggest that the Buddhist idea of success is somewhat different from the common idea.

有志者事竟成 / where there is a will there is a way

This proverb celebrates the power of the mind. Buddhists are great believers in the power of the mind. Within reasonable limits ,of course…

Battosai, still a joking question for you: my colleague Buddhist seems to be 定力非常好，and hardly get angry. Are you this kind of person?

No, ha ha(sh)

I’m getting better though…

[nipponman]

Not if your rule is any good. There's yet to be an exception to gravity, for example.

Actually, it depends on how general your rule is. I haven't honed the theory too well, but that is pretty close. Furthermore, Battosai corrected his post. But, for example g is 9.81m/s^2 that is a constant. However, as you get further from the center (higher up) g becomes less. So, there is the exception. And g for other planets is completely different, but it is still (m1*m2*G)/r^2 (I think that is the right formula for g).

[gougou]

Nipponman, what you are talking about is the speed of a falling object, what Roddy is talking about is the fact that they are falling. And last time I checked, apples still fell to the ground...

[elina]

Battosai, I understand your meaning, and agree with you. But I think I may not express myself well. What I would like to ask you is:

1. Buddhism emphasizes 不执著bu4 zhi2 zhuo2 / do not excessively persist，随缘sui2 yuan2;

2. while the following two sentences emphasize dedicated, unremitting, persevering, dead-set:

有志者事竟成 / where there is a will there is a way

成功者都是偏执狂 / a successful person must be a monomania (I remember maybe it is said by the CEO of Dell)

And I think both 1 and 2 are reasonable, but they seem on the contrary. What would you say?

[nipponman]

Nipponman, what you are talking about is the speed of a falling object, what Roddy is talking about is the fact that they are falling. And last time I checked, apples still fell to the ground...

right, and the rate at which they fall is determined by g or the formula that I showed (if it is right). Furthermore, there is even an exception to what you say, because things that orbit the earth do not fall toward the ground because of their motion. Even though gravity acts on them, the force of gravity is negated by the motion.

[gougou]

2. while the following two sentences emphasize dedicated, unremitting, persevering, dead-set:

有志者事竟成 / where there is a will there is a way

I'm no Buddhism expert, but I many times heard two rather classic jokes about this sentence:

If that is true, try slamming shut a revolving door.

If that is true, try nailing a pudding to the wall.

While these may be somewhat stupid, I think what they are telling us is that a sentence like this should not be overrated, will-power does not make us omnipotent. Nobody will ever break the world record in running, unless he was born with the appropriate body. That's why we should not persist too long in something we cannot achieve.

PS: @Nipponman, what you say is right, I'm a layman when it comes to science. Of course the laws of gravitation are not about things falling down, but about the force working on them. But I sort of forgot how this connects to religion, so I'd say let's drop it...

[elina]

While these may be somewhat stupid, I think what they are telling us is that a sentence like this should not be overrated, will-power does not make us omnipotent. Nobody will ever break the world record in running, unless he was born with the appropriate body. That's why we should not persist too long in something we cannot achieve.

Great! gougou:clap , from this, I understand many things. Thank you!

正所谓，真理与谬误只差半步 / there's only half step from truth to falsehood

该执著时就执著，该随缘时就随缘，but it's still a question for a person to decide when 执著, and when 随缘

[Jun Heng Clinic]

Hi Ellen,

In message #125 you asked the Long Zhiren about the meaning of this paragraph in his message:

And back to your message (#1) regarding physical, emotional, mental health associated with Christianity like your beloved mom, spiritual peace has lots of dividends. That's not to be confused with the peace (no war) that the world perceives. Worldly death, destruction and duress are not unfamiliar to Christians. That's not so say that they actively seek those stresses either. They're not to escape them like ascetics would [although Catholic monks would argue this last thought].

His meaning is very clear to me, but he has used quite advanced (and specialist) English vocabulary, so I hope Long Zhiren doesn’t object if I try to expand on what he wrote to clarify the meaning for you:-

And back to your message (#1) regarding physical, emotional, mental health associated with Christianity like your beloved mom, spiritual peace has lots of dividends.

‘Dividends’ literally refers to the paying out of the profits of a business to its owners, but in everyday speech it is commonly used metaphorically to describe any benefit. You can replace ‘dividends’ with ‘benefits’.

That's not to be confused with the peace (no war) that the world perceives.

This simply means that the benefits of Christianity are totally different from the ‘peace’ that the world talks of. The latter refers to a lack of war between man and man; the former to an active powerful peace between man and God.

(You need to understand that Christians use the term ‘the world’ to describe everything that is not Christian – this is based on the way that the authors of the books of the New Testament used the Greek word ‘kosmos’, which is literally translated as ‘world’.

In this sentence Long Zhiren is saying that non-Christians have ideas of peace (and war) that are very different from the Christian idea. The non-Christian typically thinks of peace as being defined as the absence of war between man and man. This definition has two aspects: (1) it is a sort of ‘negative’ definition; and (2) it is defined with reference to the relationship between man and man. But the Christian definition of peace is ‘active friendship with God’ since they believe that man can only experience true peace when united to God. This definition: (1) is a ‘positive’ definition; and (2) makes reference to man’s relationship with God, not with man. Christians often emphasize their own definition of ‘peace’ because they believe that all men are fundamentally sinful from birth and can only be changed from their sinful life to a holy life by believing in Christ. Therefore human attempts to reach holiness (or peace), unaided by God, can never bring them into *true* peace (ie union with God) – and are thus to some degree futile. Here the Christians are basically arguing against the ‘humanists’ and ‘do-gooders’ who say that all that matters in life is that you do good deeds.)

Worldly death, destruction and duress are not unfamiliar to Christians.

On the surface this simply means that death, destruction and being forced to do things you don’t want to do (ie a lack of peace – in the worldly sense), are things often experienced by Christians. However, these words also imply that while Christians *do* experience war (between man and man) they can at the same time experience (true) peace between man and God.

That's not so say that they actively seek those stresses either.

This simply means that, although Christians do experience suffering, and indeed actually prosper during that suffering because they draw strength from their peace with God, they do not *look* for that suffering.

They're not to escape them like ascetics would

This means that they should not run away from the suffering by living isolated lives.

[although Catholic monks would argue this last thought].

This is a claim by Long Zhiren that Roman Caotholic monks, however, are an exception to this in that they *do* escape from suffering by living isolated lives.

Ellen, I hope this doesn’t confuse you further!

All the best, David

[Long Zhiren]

Jun Heng Clinic,

Thanks. You're right on the money. I just edited that 2nd paragraph of #121, trying to clarify "peace."

[elina]

David, thank you very much for your so detailed explanation! I understand totally and clearly.

[elina]

Thank you, Long Zhiren, I'll look forward to your edit.

[elina]

Long Zhiren, thank you very much for the edit and the Chinese translation. My mother and her Christianity friends also say like that. I believe there is “true peace” in Christianity, but it SEEMS to ME:

1. Christianity: true peace + salvation + “close-minded”

2. Buddhism: true peace + salvation + open-minded + philosophy

I admit I don’t know very well about Buddhism, just from my colleague Buddhist and this thread. I also don’t know very well about Christianity, just from my mother and her friends. I have an idea: how about 边相信，边学习，边思考，边探索？ / how about after believing, at the same time, studying, thinking, and exploring? For example, it may be like doing business. I think a person can start a new business, after he has 80% certainty of making profit. If a person always waits for 100% certainty to do something, then he can do nothing.

Till now I prefer Buddhism, and I’ll read some materials on Buddhism, when I have time. But I will be always open-minded “for ever”, and maybe change or may not change my mind in the future.

[Long Zhiren]

>but it SEEMS to ME:

Elina, your English never ceases to impress me. Your careful differentiation of subjective expressions from objective ones look better than that of most native speakers. I'm hoping that my Mandarin verbs can be differentiated as accurately as your use of English verbs.

>1. Christianity: true peace + salvation + “close-minded”

>2. Buddhism: true peace + salvation + open-minded + philosophy

>I admit I don’t know very well about Buddhism, just from my colleague Buddhist and this

>thread. I also don’t know very well about Christianity, just from my mother and her

>friends. I have an idea: how about 边相信，边学习，边思考，边探索？ / how about after

>believing, at the same time, studying, thinking, and exploring?

Thank you so much for introducing me to these expressions/phrases. I want to learn them very much.

"closed/open minded" You realize that this is all relative. Is Buddhism "closed and intolerant" to closed-minded people? A closed-minded person generates a closed-minded Christian. An open-minded person generates an open-minded Christian. On the other hand, if one believes and is convinced that 2 + 2 = 4 and this is what he needs to know to have enough food to feed his children, is he closed-minded for rejecting 1 + 1 = 4? Have you read CS Lewis (魯益師) or JR Tolkien http://www.talkingabouttolkien.com/ ? Those are examples of Christian thought. The human imagination soars because it knows a realm that is bigger than the visible--and without drugs. The Christian mind is no longer closed-minded to unfathomable things. [eg Newton (牛頓), Kepler (克卜勒), Galileo, Pasteur, Vivaldi (韋瓦第), Bach (巴哈), Lincoln (林肯), etc] The West's most revolutionary minds were and still are Christian. If it wasn't for their foundational almost uniquely Christian approaches (secure conscience, an appreciation for creation/creator, humility, forgiveness and charity to one's enemies!), thanks to the freed conscience, the West's history would be nothing but barbarians. It's still full of barbarians too though. Their consciences were free to work & fly, accepting that certainty could never be had. Studying, thinking and exploring would be greatly handicapped with little motivation to share and debate freely. Such free sharing and debate is now hard to find again in the world.

As for 边相信，边学习，边思考，边探索, this is where Christianity is even more mind-boggling but beautiful. Christianity is for everybody but the big-headed (those who set themselves as gods). Faith is a miracle and occurs regardless whether one wants it or not, whether one is nice/big/rich/smart/studious/beautiful/etc enough, or whether one is even ready for it! One can look or listen for something. However, seeing or hearing something is always a different story. [Does Mandarin Chinese have such a differentiation of these verbs: look/see, listen/hear?] It makes foolish the wise of the world. It is simple enough for babies to bathe yet deep enough for elephants to drown. Baptism has no prerequisites. That's how God's grace works.

歌 林 多 前 書 1:27 神 卻 揀 選 了 世 上 愚 拙 的 ， 叫 有 智 慧 的 羞 愧 ； 又 揀 選 了 世 上 軟 弱 的 ， 叫 那 強 壯 的 羞 愧

[elina]

Have you read CS Lewis (魯益師) or JR Tolkien http://www.talkingabouttolkien.com/ ?

>but it SEEMS to ME:

Elina' date=' your English never ceases to impress me. Your careful differentiation of subjective expressions from objective ones look better than that of most native speakers. I'm hoping that my Mandarin verbs can be differentiated as accurately as your use of English verbs[/quote']

This website: http://www.talkingabouttolkien.com/ is blocked, I cannot open it in Beijing. And please trust me, my English is really not so good. 每一次我在这个话题里写一些东西时，我都感到特别费劲 / Every time I write something in this thread, I use great effort. At first, I try to read and digest other people’s saying carefully, and when people are talking something directly connecting to religion, their expressing method, the vocabularies they used in English even add the difficulty to me. Then I think carefully. After that, I carefully make a reply. I know this thread is a sensitive topic, don’t want to cause misunderstanding. 但同时我又被这个话题迷住了 / But at the same time, I’m so interested in this thread that I cannot stop myself from writing here again and again. It really spends me much more time. And now except for usual work, I’m in charge of redesigning our website. No one else gives me stress, but the work and the responsibility does. I will be very careful to choose a real good web design company to do the job through many investigation and comparison work. I’m not an expert in this field, before redesign, I will surf in the Internet to study relevant knowledge. Then when the redesign work begins, I will discuss with the web design company on every step carefully during the whole process. I will have little spare time in this period, and it will last several months. Meanwhile, I’ll have my big personal events to solve in this or next month. So I leave the reading on religions in next year. And I’m sure I will do some reading and bring forward new questions here, if at that time you people are still interested in this thread. I myself will always concern this thread. But from now on, I may not post here quite often like before.

A closed-minded person generates a closed-minded Christian. An open-minded person generates an open-minded Christian

I hope Christian is open-minded. What made I get the conclusion that Christian SEEMS to be “closed-minded” is:

elina worte: “Once my colleague Buddhist gave me a DVD to look. There is a 海涛法师 who used to be a Christian and now is a Buddhist. I asked my colleague Buddhist: is there a person who used to be a Buddhist and now is a Christian? She answered: certainly there is. 这就要看各人的理解和缘份了 / It’s up to every individual’s understanding and predestined relationship.” I think it shows that Buddhism is not against other religions. And Buddhism considers other religions are reasonable. But what I heard from Christian is: God is the only and true super power (I cannot express this sentence very well, but I indicate the meaning), if you do not believe in God, you must be wrong.

On the other hand, if one believes and is convinced that 2 + 2 = 4 and this is what he needs to know to have enough food to feed his children, is he closed-minded for rejecting 1 + 1 = 4?

Your example is quite reasonable. But I’m afraid that it is not suitable to religion. Because 2 + 2 = 4 can be proved, and it is accepted by common people in the world; while religion is not as simple as that. Religion is some kind of 说不清，道不明, “Believing is called faith. Faith is believing something that can’t always be explained, seen, or understood” (Youshen’s saying, and I like it so much). That’s why we discuss this thread for a long time.

[eg Newton (牛頓), Kepler (克卜勒), Galileo, Pasteur, Vivaldi (韋瓦第), Bach (巴哈), Lincoln (林肯), etc'] The West's most revolutionary minds were and still are Christian.If it wasn't for their foundational almost uniquely Christian approaches (secure conscience, an appreciation for creation/creator, humility, forgiveness and charity to one's enemies!),

Yes, these are all great people. But it cannot show that there is no “secure conscience, humility, forgiveness and charity to one's enemies” in Buddhism. On the contrary, I think Buddhism ALSO does have these.

One can look or listen for something. However, seeing or hearing something is always a different story. [Does Mandarin Chinese have such a differentiation of these verbs: look/see, listen/hear?]

Mandarin: look看/see看见, listen听/hear听见. Yes, I listened from my mother and listened from my colleague Buddhist before. So I’d like to see and hear. But how can I see and hear? I think I must 置身其中 / place myself in it，我才能看见和听见 / in this way I have the possibility to see and hear, then I have the possibility to find if it is true or not. That’s why I said: how about 边相信，边学习，边思考，边探索？ / how about after believing, at the same time, studying, thinking, and exploring?

我认为我就是一个愚拙的、软弱的人，所以我才要寻求宗教的帮助。I consider myself is a person who is not so smart, weak, and for this reason, I'd like to seek the help of religion.

[nipponman]

Sorry to go ot, but I thought you couldn't say 我才能看见和听见 Because 和 can't be used for verbs? Please xplain!

[elina]

nipponman, you are a good language learner who can make use of every chance to study, I’m sure you’ll make great progress with your Chinese. Please read New Chinese–English Dictionary of Function Words

page 173

http://photo.163.com/openpic.php?user=elinasatter&pid=428228723&_dir=%2F17634737

后面有共同的宾语时，“和”可连接谓语中并列的动词：

我才能看见和听见something (ellipsis)

page 174

http://photo.163.com/openpic.php?user=elinasatter&pid=428228936&_dir=%2F17634737

page 175

http://photo.163.com/openpic.php?user=elinasatter&pid=428229201&_dir=%2F17634737

And I am a good businessman, so I’d like to also use this chance to promote the product on our website:

http://shop.aaawww.net/mod8/detail.php?gid=322309&userid=7912&catid=493986