Coronavirus - those in China, and general discussion

[dtcamero]

29 minutes ago, ChTTay said:

It does make sense if someone who is infected’s spit or snot gets into your eyes it could infect you. Right?

or becoming airborne via a sneeze

[dtcamero]

also according to AFP, it's not just Beijing any longer.

Shandong province and four cities, Beijing, Shanghai, Xi'an and Tianjin, announcing indefinite bans on long-distance buses entering or leaving.

 

My friend's friend recently opened a travel tour company and is losing a lot of money because of this.

[Tomsima]

my dad was a specialist on drug delivery across membranes, and did a lot of research on getting drugs into the body via the eye, specifically looking at enzymes that would carry the drug to the back of the eye and enter via the optical nerve. Im not in sciences, but from what he used to say, the eye is a very difficult membrane to get through, so I would imagine the rumors of infection via the eye must only refer to sneezing particles directly into the eyes or being carried there by contiminated hands

[suMMit]

*Unsubstantiated, but my wife heard from a friend theres been a huge outbreak somwhere in Anhui

[ChTTay]

3 hours ago, DavyJonesLocker said:

Well what's being quoted is that you can get it by shaking hands touching something effect then rubbing your eyes which apparently many unconsciously do. Makes sense I guess. 

 

I can find a link if you like. 

I mean that’s a normal route to infection， no? But from what @Tomsima is saying it might be that easy. 
 

Personally I’ve been avoiding touching my face as much as possible while outside. It’s been a conscious effort. Of course also wearing a mask.  
 

While we’re vaguely on the subject...

(see below Jan’s response to the below) 

A lot of advice about using hand sanitizer but, from what a Doctor friend tells me, unless it’s 95%+ alcohol (which none are that are available OTC here) it won’t be if much use against this Wuhan virus. Essentially they told me as the Coronavirus is an enveloped virus it will probably be more resistant to hand sanitizer. Anyone here weigh in on that? @abcdefg

[abcdefg]

32 minutes ago, ChTTay said:

Essentially they told me as the Coronavirus is an enveloped virus it will probably be more resistant to hand sanitizer. Anyone here weigh in on that? @abcdefg

 

Sorry, I don't really know. We used tons of it when I was still working in the ER during SARS, but that was a long time ago. We thought it was like garlic for vampires. It's hazardous to extrapolate from then to now and I'm not up to date on the latest information regarding its efficacy. 

 

Anecdotal I realize, but my elderly landlord made a special trip to see me yesterday. She and her husband brought me two bottles of a locally-made, alcohol-based hand sanitizer gel. He's a retired physician. Spent a career as a military doctor. I once asked him about his specialty, and he said it was 军队卫生。That would be something like "military public health." 

[ChTTay]

22 minutes ago, abcdefg said:

She and her husband brought me two bottles of a locally-made, alcohol-based hand sanitizer gel.

Yeah I had a look on Taobao at the ones on offer. All between 50-70% alcohol. Maybe that stuff is stronger!? 

[Jan Finster]

1 hour ago, ChTTay said:

A lot of advice about using hand sanitizer but, from what a Doctor friend tells me, unless it’s 95%+ alcohol (which none are that are available OTC here) it won’t be if much use against this Wuhan virus. Essentially they told me as the Coronavirus is an enveloped virus it will probably be more resistant to hand sanitizer. Anyone here weigh in on that? @abcdefg

 

This is all not true. 

 

Firstly, enveloped viruses are actually easier to disinfect than non-enveloped viruses. The lipid (fat) coating makes them more vulnerable:

https://www.infectioncontroltoday.com/environmental-hygiene/understanding-physiology-healthcare-pathogens-environmental-disinfection

 

Second, 60-70% alcohol content is standard in hospitals because a greater concentration actually could reduce the chance of disinfection. Where I  work, we actually order 95% alcohol and dilute it to 70% for surface cleaning:

https://www.cdc.gov/infectioncontrol/guidelines/disinfection/disinfection-methods/chemical.html

Here another source (granted not the best):https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-70-ipa-100-mohamed-anvar-deen

 

You do not actually need to use alcohol, 20 seconds of hand washing is enough:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/about/prevention-treatment.html

[roddy]

The eye thing came from comments found here.

 

I'm going to ask, more in hope than expectation, that people refrain from posting rumours. If you absolutely have to (you don't, though) then mark it clearly as that, state clearly that you don't believe it, and make some disparaging remark about whoever sent it to you. Because otherwise, you're just spreading unsubstantiated rumours.

 

I'd love to know what the internal WHO view is on China's city closures. Originally they seemed circumspect at best, now this:

Quote

The WHO’s director general, Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus last week urged China to ensure lockdown measures are kept “short in duration”

Not 'as long as necessary', not 'we welcome these measures'. I'm not sure the WHO approves. 

[Tomsima]

obviously not really any use, but thought it was funny the men in our household have upped the daily baijiu to 60% strength (from the clearly inferior 50% prior to the outbreak), everyones like "try infecting my baijiu-bloated body"

 

obligatory this is not an effective approach to resisting the wuhan coronavirus

[Jan Finster]

7 minutes ago, roddy said:

Quote

The WHO’s director general, Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus last week urged China to ensure lockdown measures are kept “short in duration”

Not 'as long as necessary', not 'we welcome these measures'. I'm not sure the WHO approves. 

 

What annoys me about the WHO and anyone criticizing China on their virus management is that they do not publish a better way of dealing with it. It is easy to be an arm-chair critic. For example, the WHO rightly says the fever scanners are of little use, but they do not seem have a better strategy altogether.

[ChTTay]

9 minutes ago, Jan Finster said:

This is all not true. 

Great! 
 

10 minutes ago, Jan Finster said:

You do not actually need to use alcohol, 20 seconds of hand washing is enough:

You mean hand washing with soap and water? If you don’t have that... hand sanitizer? 

[Jan Finster]

Just now, ChTTay said:

You mean hand washing with soap and water? If you don’t have that... hand sanitizer? 

 

Yes!

[roddy]

Just now, Jan Finster said:

What annoys me about the WHO and anyone criticizing China on their virus management is that they do not publish a better way of dealing with it

I suspect that's diplomacy at this point. They can sit down with whoever they sit down with from the Chinese government and say "Look, what would be more effective is...", but there's no need for them to create "WHO criticises Chinese virus response" headlines when they're dealing with an already sensitive situation. 

[Jan Finster]

2 hours ago, Tomsima said:

my dad was a specialist on drug delivery across membranes, and did a lot of research on getting drugs into the body via the eye, specifically looking at enzymes that would carry the drug to the back of the eye and enter via the optical nerve. Im not in sciences, but from what he used to say, the eye is a very difficult membrane to get through, so I would imagine the rumors of infection via the eye must only refer to sneezing particles directly into the eyes or being carried there by contiminated hands

 

20 minutes ago, roddy said:

The eye thing came from comments found here.

 

Here is a paper discussing the relationship between the eye and respiratory viruses including coronavirus:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3591987/#!po=1.44231

 

"Respiratory viruses are typically spread by inhalation of virus-containing aerosols expelled by infected individuals or by direct or indirect contact with virus-contaminated fomites on environmental surfaces (1, 2). However, the epithelia of the human eye represent an additional mucosal surface which is similarly exposed to infectious aerosols and contaminated fomites (3, 4). Viruses which are generally considered respiratory pathogens are nonetheless capable of causing ocular complications in infected individuals and establishing a respiratory infection following ocular exposure"

 

What Tomsima said is probably true and does not contradict the paper. Also, the specialist Roddy talks about may be correct. So, infection through the mucous membranes of the eyes is probably less likely, but possible. This would also explain why doctors dealing with coronavirus patients are told to wear protective glasses:

" Healthcare personnel entering the room should use standard precautions, contact precautions, airborne precautions, and use eye protection (e.g., goggles or a face shield)". https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/infection-control.html

[Jim]

25 minutes ago, Tomsima said:

obligatory this is not an effective approach to resisting the wuhan coronavirus

On the other hand, self-medicators report a marked decrease in feelings of concern about the crisis.

[Jan Finster]

23 minutes ago, roddy said:

I suspect that's diplomacy at this point. They can sit down with whoever they sit down with from the Chinese government and say "Look, what would be more effective is...", but there's no need for them to create "WHO criticises Chinese virus response" headlines when they're dealing with an already sensitive situation. 

Or they do not have a better plan. After all, the Chinese at least have some first-hand experience with SARS. Hopefully they have done a proper analysis of their SARS management and learnt from it. How many of the ivory tower professors at the WHO do? OK, there was MERS and Ebola, but still... I would also imagine cultural aspects need to be taken into account in the management. Chinese are not Brits or Americans. I would imagine the WHO watches closely how and if "city quarantines" work and it learns as much as it criticizes.

[suMMit]

The Costa Venezia returned to Shenzhen port, southeastern China, this morning. On arrival, the ship was boarded by a medical team who checked all 4,973 passengers and 1,249 crew for symptoms of fever and pneumonia, reported Maritime Bulletin.

Four were found to have high temperatures while 148 passengers who were residents of Wuhan or visited Wuhan recently were isolated for a stricter screening.

 

https://www.express.co.uk/travel/cruise/1233695/coronavirus-cruise-cancelled-cruises-china-royal-caribbean-msc-news-latest

[suMMit]

19 hours ago, Jan Finster said:

It is super stressful and not something we are used to deal with. I understand you left China, but it would not be unusual to have symptoms resembling PTSD after such a potentially dangerous event.  Wish you all the best.

 

Yes, i'm not sure the exact definition of PTSD is but its sounds what I'm feeling. I can't get the images of the videos of the poor souls at overcrowded 武汉 hospitals. I feel so bad for them. I imagine in my mind people arguing, kids crying, panic etc. I've been living in China for 7 years, I feel a strong connection to the people. My teacher, who is the loveliest and most skillful teacher I've ever had is on lockdown in Hubei. She's doing ok, and we've been chatting (just light conversation) daily since this started. 

 

Anyway, I'm calmer today. Thanks for the well wishes. 

[mackie1402]

The airport bus from Hangzhou to Shanghai has been cancelled for the time being.